Music Hall's budget models

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by -=Rudy=-, Mar 24, 2003.

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  1. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    US
    I'm not turntable hunting...or if I am, I'm hunting for someone else. On my A&M Corner site, I'm looking to put together some kind of guide to equipping a system for vinyl playback, on a budget. Very few of the members can afford anything megabuck, but I was trying to recommend something that is high quality with a good value, both new and used. For example, a good used $50 turntable could be found in a Dual...it would play circles around the mass-market crap being sold today, even with its standard Ortofon cartridge.

    I came across those Music Hall MMF-1 and MMF-2.1 turntables, and they're not ultra-expensive. How do they compare? Especially the MMF-1, is it something that would sound good for the money? Is it solidly built? I just don't want to recommend something that's potentially not a solid performer.

    I don't need anything too in-depth...just a general idea, from an owner/user standpoint.
     
  2. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    I would recommend the Music Hall turntables, like the MMF 2.1 still in production, it seems. Good for entry level, but after hearing the Regas (and I own a 3) THE Music Halls aren't very attractive. Under that, you're really getting into turntables that aren't very musical.

    A Rega Planar 3 is what I would recommend to people who want something rich and built solidly well. You can feel AND hear it. Not sure if $600 for a front end is too much, but I'm very proud of that unit. Absolutely sweet listening...
     
  3. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    US
    I'm figuring anything over $200 is pushing it, with the intended audience I'd be writing this for. $300...maybe, which is where an MMF-2.1 would fit in. (They'll spend $200-$300 on a decent CD or DVD player.) $600 is what they'd spend on an entire system, probably. ;) Didn't know if something like an MMF-1 would be worth getting, or if a DJ turntable would be a better value in the same price range. There are some cheap mass-market turntables out there with built-in preamps, but the few I've looked at in the stores are flimsy junk. The DJ turtables look solid and workmanlike, but they probably sound the same--they're built for a different purpose.

    I'd probably recommend pricier equipment anyway, but I'm thinking that this is over the heads of 95% of the folks who might read my guide, who probably wouldn't hear a difference. I'm thinking of something that's affordable, well-built, and reliable with decent sound.

    Did that make sense? ;)
     
  4. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Forum Resident

    Location:
    Funkytown
    I have heard the MMF1 is comparable to the MMF2, but it uses a cheaper tonearm that can only work with the exact make/model of cartridge that it comes with.

    If this is true, I'd probably avoid the MMF1.
     
  5. Roscoe

    Roscoe Active Member

    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    The MMF 2.1 is a great entry level turntable for the enthusiast on a budget. This is the turntable I bought back in 1999 when I was looking for something affordable for vinyl-to-CD transfers (and something better than one of those Technics craptables from Best Buy).

    Certainly it doesn't compete with a more expensive Rega or with Music Hall's next model up (MMF-5), but it's a great place to start.

    I liked it so much that I got back into vinyl in a major way, and eventually upgraded to MMF-5, then an MMF-7 (my current TT).

    You should be able to find an MMF 2.1 on the Internet for less than $300.
     
  6. jeff e.

    jeff e. Member

    Location:
    NY
    The Music Hall 2.1 is an excellent turntable for the money. I bought mine a couple of years ago and I love it. The only major caveat is that the supplied Goldring Elan cartridge is an underperformer, to say the least. It's possible to get a 2.1 in the $250 range, but the buyer should plan on upgrading the cartridge, which is bound to add another $100 or more. I put an Audio-Technica AT440ML on mine and it's an outstanding combination.
     
  7. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    DJ turntables are pretty solidly built. You may want to consider recommending and either / or situation with a DJ TT or a Music Hall, depending on what your audience wants.

    Just a thought.
     
  8. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    We carry DJ turntables from Gemini, NuMark and Stanton at www.northernlightfx.com

    I use a Gemini XL-200 with great results, a Gemini XL-500 is another excellent model. Stanton STR8-80 is another great turntable as well and unlike the recommended Gemini, this Stanton does play 78s and is the cheapest turntable we have that does so. You can't go wrong with a Numark model either. DJ turntables can be as cheap as $100 on up and with the proper setup sound as good as a high-end audiophile turntable. If you need a DJ mixer, we can set you up with one of them as well, and as Gary says, they are very solidly built.
     
  9. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    US
    I was thinking of offering some options, yes. Some music collectors don't have large budgets, so getting the most for the dollar is very important. Others might want to step up a little.

    I would still push a good Shure V15 cartridge for those who want some really good transfers. I've even used the V15 on a crappy Realistic turntable before I got my good setup, back when it first came out. It blew me away then, and got even better once I had it in a decent arm. That stabilizer brush really helps it work in just about any halfway decent tonearm.

    I would probably recommend various tables at different price levels. I just had someone a couple of weekends ago asking what he could buy to start listening to records again. He'd seen one of those Sony turntables with the preamp, and we more or less convinced him to spend the same money on a used table and a phono preamp. In some cities, there are dealers turning up who are selling refurbished turntables. And they know their stuff, too.

    Have to look at this from my viewpoint also--I can't afford a table or much of anything right now, and I haven't really looked at a turntable for myself since the 1980's. I have no need to upgrade. I might want a second turntable at some point and relegate my modified 'table to special projects, but all I know are the older turntable brands and models. Rega was around back then, but Music Hall wasn't.

    Good suggestion so far....thanks! :D

    Bradley--are those Gemini tables based on the old Technics direct-drive tables?
     
  10. duff138

    duff138 Forum Resident

    Location:
    NH
    The Music Hall 2.1 seems to be a great entry level table. My brother-in-law's friend just bought one $259. I have not heard it yet, but was told, by my brother-in-law, that it sounded very good. I see in this post people talking about the cartridge being an under-performing. The newest Music Hall 2.1 are now using a different cartridge, so maybe an upgrade is not necessary.
    If someone wanted an upgrade the Audio Technica cartridge priced at $99 is a bargain. My brother-in-law has it on his Rega p3, and it sounds very good. He actually started off with it on a DJ Numark table, which I think would definitely be a decent entry level table.
     
  11. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    Some of the Gemini's are based on the Old Technics direct drives. The cartridge that came with my Gemini was a stock cartridge but I upgraded to a Stanton cartridge and the sound improved.
     
  12. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    BTW, NorthernLightFX is linked in the Site Seeing section of the main page of Steve's website.
     
  13. ascot

    ascot Senior Member

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I am thinking about getting a new TT myself. I have a budget of about $300 so I'm in the same boat with Rudy's group.

    I have looked at the Gemini's on NorthernLight and seen a couple that might be nice. This is only for transfers to CD-R and I do not collect audiophile pressings.

    I also wonder if just replacing the cartridge would be adequate. Right now I'm using a Pioneer PL-600 from Best Buy that runs 1%-2% fast with no pitch adjustment.

    Any more suggestions are greatly appreciated!
     
  14. I bought an MMF-5 about 6 weeks ago and absolutely love it. It replaced a
    recently deceased Rotel. This thing just sucks the music out of the grooves,
    and paired with the Goldring cart. that comes with it, it soundstages nicely.

    Never thought I'd like the moving magnet sound this much after listening to
    moving coil for the last decade.

    I would not recommend an Audio Technica cart. to anyone!

    I've used Shure, Pickering, Grado (cheap line), Sumiko (Blue Pt Std.) and this Goldring
    and the AT was the weakest, thinnest sounding of the lot.

    The Grado had the highest noise floor but was pretty musical beyond this flaw.
    I had a channel imbalance when I first bought the Grado but vaseline on
    the needle contacts inside the cart. seemed to cure this.
     
  15. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    I found the sound of both Audio Technica and Grado carts that I have used to be somewhat similar, in that they both seem to constrict the sound, boost the highs, and they both leave a strong sonic imprint. It is sad that the cheaper Audio Technicas are all that is widely available for the non-audiophile anymore. Can you say Best Buy?

    Stanton carts are made for DJs who are into "slipping" the groove, or "scratching". They are not meant for those who are concerned about accurate playback and record wear.
     
  16. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    US
    To be honest, I've had a couple of Grado cartridges, not high end models, and didn't get a constricted feeling to the sound, other than mistracking in the inner grooves. If they ever made a cartridge with a line-contact stylus, I'd probably try one. But no matter what I've tried, I keep going back to my Shure V15V-MR. Shure has a cheaper cartridge, an M97 (IIRC), that uses the V15 style of body, with a stabilizer brush. I'd be interested to hear that one. I do usually recommend a Grado for someone on a budget.

    The one disappointing cartridge I own is a Dynavector DV10X3, circa mid 80's. THAT beast is very constricted, almost constipated, and to me has a very dull, lifeless sound to it. I even loaded it properly by changing the caps in my preamp, and still never liked it. Lousy tracker, also...very stiff cantilever suspension. Really wanted to like this one, since it was my first (and only) moving coil. It looked cool though. ;) It amazed me to read a review of the DV10X4 a couple years later saying it was a bright cartridge. Must have been a design change....? Needless to say, back to the Shure V15 again! :D

    I agree about the DJ cartridges--just seeing the environment they're used in, I would not play my good vinyl with the conical or elliptical stylii these carts use. If they can handle abuse, that means the cantilevers are rugged and likely not very lightweight; good trackability is obtained with a line contact stylus (like the V15's MicroRidge) and a very lightweight cantilever (V15's beryllium tube...fragile as hell). They're good cartridges for their intended purpose, but i would be interested to see how well they track on the Shure obstacle course LP. Bet they can't even pass a level 2. My Grado strains at level 3.

    I've never tried a recent Audio Technica. I got one from my grandfather that dates back to the 70's--I remember it as being overly bright. I also got a couple of Shure M44-7's, with both the LP conical and 78RPM stylii. Comes in handy for special projects.
     
  17. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    Actually, elliptical styli are what's recommended for general listening and spherical styli is what's made for scratching. I do know DJs who don't even like Stanton's and prefer the Ortofon DJ carts. Stanton does make hi-fi cartridges as well as the DJ cartridges they are known for. Stanton 680s are for hi-fi purposes and the Stanton I use is a regular 680, not the "hiFi" version which does have similar specs.
     
  18. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    Specs for the cartridge I use, the Stanton 680 EL II
    Frequency Response 20 to 18 kHz
    Output @ 1kHz: 3.9mV
    Channel Separation @ 1 kHz: 30dB
    Channel Balance @ 1 kHz: within 2 dB
    Tracking Force: 2 to 5 grams
    Stylus Tip: Elliptical .3 x .7 mil Special High Polish
    DC Resistance: 1300 ohms
    Inductance: 930 m
    Cartridge Weight: 6.3 grams
    Tracking Ability: 90µ @ 3 grams
    Recommended Load: 47k ohms and 275 pF
    Replacement Stylus: D6800-EL-II

    Technicak Specifications-680 HiFi
    Frequency Response 20 to 20kHz
    Output @ 1kHz: 3.0mV
    Channel Separation @ 1 kHz: 30dB
    Channel Balance @ 1 kHz: 2 dB
    Tracking Force: 0.75 to 1.5 grams
    Stylus Tip: Elliptical 0.3 x 0.7 mil Super High Polish
    DC Resistance: 1300 ohms
    Inductance: 930 mH. Nom.
    Cartridge Weight: 6.3 grams
    Recommended Load: 47 kOhms, 275 pF
    Replacement Stylus: D6800 HiFi

    The only difference is that the HiFi has a little lower tracking force weight and a slightly lower output as a result, but the HiFi as a slightly higher range of frequency response.
     
  19. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    A DJ turntable will suit your needs Ascot and either using one of the recommended carts suggested by others or a Stanton 680 (either the regular version or the "HiFi" version as they have very few differences).
     
  20. audio

    audio New Member

    Location:
    guyana
    It's my understanding that anyone who is serious about pristine listening on any budget should steer clear of DJ turntables. These are direct drive units and there is no isolation from the motor, which results in needless vibrations and excessive noise. I would stick with the inexpensive, belt-drive, entry level audiophile units such as those by Music Hall, Sumiko, Rega, etc.
     
  21. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    There are belt drive DJ turntables. My DJ turntable is a belt drive as well. The cheaper DJ turntables are belt drive for the most part. The expensive models are direct drive. There are people that prefer direct drive as well.
     
  22. Shakey

    Shakey New Member

    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    Yes, at least they used to, I sold mine to a friend on a Technics TT some time back. His 3 year old daughter broke the stylus/cantilever. When my friend contacted Shure and explained, it was hard to find replacements back then, Shure sent him a replacement no charge. To the point it was very close at getting the V15 sound at a substantial savings, and yes it looked to be structurally indentical.
     
  23. Joe Koz

    Joe Koz Prodigal Bone Brother™ In Memoriam

    Location:
    Chicagoland
    How would the Sure V15 sound on a MMF-5? Would it be a good combination?
     
  24. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Rudy, maybe your friends might be interested in buying a used Rega.

    If not, the Music Hall 2.1 is probably the best choice for a new turntable that's $300 and under. I've never heard it though, but I did hear the MMF-5 at a show and it's pretty good.
     
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