Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt7)

While I don’t mind 45s for a late night dedicated listen, I also listen to vinyl while I’m working. And the way our house is set up I like spinning vinyl while I cook. flipping every 8 minutes can be tedious enough to play a different 33 instead. So I don’t mind 45s of all time favorites. But something like the Cat Walk which is fine but not mind blowing, I almost never reach for that one, it’d be great for while I’m cooking or working but not something I want to hear at a dedicated session over the 40 other 45s I have

 

The only record to me that sounds close to the Music Matters is the Tone Poet Katanga!

 

I have to disagree. I have compared Green Street, Workout, and Midnight Blue. I just prefer the sound, mastering, the live feel, etc. of the AP45 to the Music Matters. It isn't by a lot, and I think they are damn close in many regards.

I would pick the AP45 over the MMJ 33 or 45 if we are talking record only and not taking into account the jackets.

 

There are a lot of Tone Poets that are on par enough with Music Matters that if MMJ released them as is, I wouldn't question a thing nor thing that the sound quality was lacking for a MMJ release. Not all of them of course, but many of them. Byrd in Flight, Oblique, Further Explorations, Now he Sings Now he Sobs, and Etc. come to mind.

 

There are some AP 45s that are definitely better than the MM 33rpm pressings. Not an apples to apples comparison though. Moanin, Green Street and Page One AP 45s are much better IMO. The MM33rpms just don't rise up to the performance of the 45rpm.

All of the MM45s that I have compared to the MM33rpm versions are better as well, some more than others. I have most of them. The 45s aren't as convenient but they definitely bring out the performance better than the 33rpms, that is why they started the series in the 45rpm format. Once I connected to the performance of the 45rpms it's was very difficult to transition to the MM33s. I wanted the MM 33rpms to be better or at least equal but they aren't, something missing relatively. I still have the MM 33rpms but I never play them, I will probably sell them off at some point.

 

Thanks, all. I legit was not looking to make this a 45 vs 33 battle, even though it kind of came down to that, but more how the other factors played into any sonic differences.

I've got a couple back on their way toward me, Blue Train, Moanin', Midnight Blue, and Idle Moments. They're all the AcousTech RTI pressed versions and I'm excited to A/B them against my SRX copies from MMJ. I will say from my novice ear, the 33s I've listened to and some of the SRX that I own do seem a little top heavy and a bit hot for my ears, though the low noise floor of the SRX really shines on some of the quieter titles. I honestly am more eager to grab the AP45s that were only done on 33 (not SRX) from MMJ and compare those. I wish I kept them before acquiring the MMJ versions to compare - had 5/9 of them, oof.

 

Just a quick note: Nothing I mentioned was meant to imply anything about 45 vs. 33. I like the way AP and early MM titles were mastered by the Gray/Hoffman team. If they were on 33 I have absolutely zero doubt I’d feel the same way.

But they aren’t, so we double up and live with it.

 

The 33 vs 45 discussion is still worth having from time to time, as sometimes there are new people to the game here. It's a good reminder that the newest and latest is not always the best. And it's good to have a discussion distinguishing 'audiophile' sorts of characteristics from 'musical' ones. Sometimes they overlap, but not always.

 

For sure, most of that conversation are posts that I did not quote. But yeah, I think I'll be pleased if I can get my hands back onto all the AP45s.

 

I hear the difference between the early MMJ 45s and the later MMJ 45s and 33s similar to Tim. The early 45s emphasize the midrange and, I'll add, highlight the soloist. The later 45s and 33s boost the highs and have a more forward presentation, and don't emphasize the soloist but put him in line with the rest of the ensemble.

I prefer the later 45s and 33s for that reason. I do desktop and headphone listening, so the later 45s and 33s put me in the front row of a jazz club, where I can focus on and "watch" every musician on stage. If I had floor-standing speakers and subwoofers, I might have a different preference; I don't know. The early 45s sound muddy and flabby to me–tubey, if you will. Maybe with a more distant sweet spot that would "bloom" into something very nice sounding; I don't know. For me, the later 45s and 33s provide taut and tuneful bass and cymbal presence in addition to a present midrange. I don't feel like I'm missing anything, and I can focus on whichever instrument I care to at any given moment.

 

A very good assessment. I don’t agree that the early 45s sound “muddy” but otherwise I get what you’re hearing.

It goes without saying but I’ll say it anyway: This stuff is mostly down to taste.

I’ve seen folks rave about The Soothsayer 45, for example. For me the treble is getting pretty hot by then. Kevin Gray can work top end air as well as anybody, but at some point I get drawn back to a sound that works better for horns.

To my ears, the Hoffman/Gray team had a tremendous balance between finding life in the tapes but getting a full sound and dealing with Van Gelder’s recording techniques at the same time.

Some of the recent reissues are getting too hot in the treble for me. My Conception is one where I literally have to switch out for a Grado Black to deal with Byrd’s trumpet in that left channel. Yikes!

 

It's always worth highlighting that Acoustech and Cohearant Audio are different mastering rooms with some differences in gear, different people
Acoustech Mastering ran from 1997-2010 at RTI's facility in Camarillo, CA.
Cohearant Audio moved to North Hills, CA when Kevin opened his own facility in 2010.

Blue Notes
AP 2x45 = Series 1 2008/2009 Series 2 2010. Acoustech Mastering. 50 titles Steve Hoffman/Kevin Gray
MMJ 2x45 = Started at Acoustech in 2009 and transitioned to CA after about 74 titles (Art Blakey Indestructible was the last @ATM). Kevin Gray/Joe Harley/Ron R
33 MMJ and TP = 2014-Present @ Cohearant Audio. Kevin & Joe

Not the same gear, not the same room, and not the same people mastered both.

The 45 vs 33 often gets dragged into the discussion, but there are only a few Music Matters titles where direct
comparisons are possible for both mastered at CA in both 33 and 45, (and some of those 33's are pressed on SRX)

 

Different mastering equipment, different rooms, different engineers it all doesn't matter. Better is just better! and the 45s are just better. They initially chose 45rpm why? because it's ........ better. Just like we compare every pressing out there to determine which is better, it's always different equipment, different engineers, different pressing plants. Sometimes the differences are subjective other times not. Kevin Gray has done some wonderful mastering over the years but some of his releases are bright and this is characteristic of what I hear in the MM33rpms across the board. Works great for titles like Idle Moments because the session is simple and restrained, other titles like True Blue become brash.

 

Sure. I'm well aware.

Not quite following what this has to do with my points, but to reiterate, the "45 vs. 33" thing isn't much of a significant factor to me. I think the other differences are far more relevant.

The bottom line is more treble has been a factor for a while now and it kind of started late in the 45 game. Legions of people clearly love this. I find it works through the end of the 45s but starts to occasionally be too much as the 33s took over.

This is not about the switch to 33. It's about different equipment, different teams and taste, and ultimately different sonic goals.

 

There ARE direct comparisons out there.

In the recent Michael Hobson EBay dump, there's the Bill Henderson 33/45 12" of him singing "Send In The Clowns". One side cut at 45, the other at 33. It's pretty easy to hear the difference in a good system. You can attempt to buy this one, and/or Classic Records did a series of 33/45 12" discs comparisons.

 

i guess you got confused by someone agreeing with you?

 

Having heard a number of apples to apples 33 to 45 comparisons, I offer a counterpoint:

Life is too short with too much new music to hear to worry about this kind of thing, IMO. The differences range from non-existent to minor enough as to what I would suspect would be difficult to prove in double-blind testing.

Also, if there is a bigger rip-off in the "audiophile" world than Hobson's "archive copy" nonsense, I can't think off-hand what it might be. How many of those are there, anyway? He had the "1 of 5" thing and then wasn't there the "1 of 2" batch that started showing up at crazy prices on Acoustic Sounds recently?

Most of those Classic releases were pressed in such small batches that a small premium for the first few off the presses is one thing, but some of the recent prices I've seen.... give me a break. Just my 2 cents...

 

to sell you a new version of what you already own?
to sell you a product that costs twice as much?
to sell you....

 

So MM are dishonest? Strange conclusion! I bet they would have continued with the 45rpm pressings, the change was driven by market pressures as many people wouldn't buy the 45s regardless of sounds advantages. Yes the 45s are better, if you find any at a good price grab em.

 

what's "dishonest" about making a product different to sell it? I certainly didn't say that.

 

You've pretty much completely dismissed my point. And Mike Hobson's EBay dump is his thing. If you don't like it, ignore it.

In any event, you are welcome to enjoy whatever you like. By my guest.

But I'll say that if my life were truly to be very short, I'd want to experience the exquisite rather than the merely good.

And the difference between the 33 and 45 of the Bill Henderson is that one side is really good, and the other is like being transported into the club, "seeing" it, too. The 33 side was very good. But the 45 had a sense of magic. I'm in favor of the magic.

 

I am not saying the AP's are bad by any means. The MM are just a tad more Analog sounding and let's face it, that why we buy the records. I'll be honest, I don't know how they get those Music Matters records to sound the way they do. Voodoo of some sort. You should sell your Music Matters records and let somebody enjoy them so you can go buy more AP's.

I guess we all hear differently but MM sure does get a lot of attention..... I wonder why?

For instance, like a 1300 plus page thread for example. I think that speaks for itself.

 

the MMJ records I have are ones that AP never did and my AP45s are some of my favorite titles so I chose them over MMJ, and they were cheaper and still in print. I love both reissue companies along with Tone Poet and Classic series. All are very exceptional and I enjoy all the titles I have from each one. Weird post my dude

 

the 45 RPM AP should sound good, Its at a higher RPM, bigger grooves. Just like the Music Matters. Does Analogue Productions have a thread this long? lol

Answer: They are the best analog vinyl records ever made, thats why Lol

 

I think your assertion is system dependent. I find that AP Blue Notes (not the Verve 45s, which were mastered by a different team) and the early MMs to be very similar. And that has a lot to do with who mastered and cut them - Hoffman and Gray.

And not analog sounding? I'm not sure what you mean. I don't find them to be clinical sounding. I have several of the AP 45 Blue Notes, and they don't sound bright or thin, and they propel the music well.