Music Matters Definitive Blue Note 45 RPM and 33 & 1/3 RPM vinyl series (pt7)

As I hope I've made clear, I think there can be some advantages to cutting at 45. My issue is the degree to which Jeff seems to believe it accounts for these differences. Once every few months, I figure it's time to stop letting only his opinion dominate.

To be clear: What I don't believe is that on the Music Matters reissues that speed is even a spec on the sonic radar compared to how they were mastered. That'd be like all of the 33 lovers over at LJC insisting that the reason the 33s have more treble extension is because 45 can't accommodate it.

I've heard a number of them where they were virtually indistinguishable. Chet is Back, Seven Steps To Heaven, Someday My Prince Will Come... these are just off the top of my head. There is zero difference. I'd bet a nice dinner that nobody could tell these apart in a blind test. And while I shouldn't have to say this, I will again point out that I am not suggesting there can't be differences. But I am offering a counterpoint to your comment that you've never heard a 33 that sounds like a 45, There are a few examples that absolutely sound stone cold identical. No benefit to the 45 speed, whatsoever. None.

 

Seven Steps to Heaven the AP45 is head and shoulders above the AP33. Really not even close. The others you mentioned I couldn’t say, I haven’t heard them.

Have you ever considered that other people just hear things differently than you? Whether it’s ears, rooms, systems, or what ever?

Also, challenging opinions based on “blind testing” is against the forum rules. For good reason.

 

Your comment about Seven Steps To Heaven just demonstrates that we're not on the same page about this issue. I found them so close that I recorded both to see if there was any difference or if my ears were playing tricks on me. All peaks were 100% identical. Not a single difference in dynamics. All frequencies completely the same. Not a single difference that could be measured.

And you think one is "head and shoulders" above the other?

Sorry but I don't believe for a second that you could guess which was which consistently in a blind test. Just as its your right to insist on the "different ears, different systems" argument, it's my right to believe that in a such a test your ears wouldn't be able to distinguish between the two. Just my 2c.

 

If you think everything we hear can be demonstrated in a graph, yes we are on totally different pages.

Ask an auditory scientist about that. Those I have talked to would very much disagree and will be the first to admit we in no way understand everything around hearing - much less are we able to graph it.

And, no, the blind test is not really your right, as you are on a forum that has rules, and that is explicitly against the rules of this forum.

 

Steve doesn't do the cutting. That's not his expertise. Kevin Gray did the cutting when they were in tandem. Most who have both the Rumours reissues they did, one at 33 and the other at 45, prefer the 45 for sound.

Hey, don't buy the 45s if you don't want to. But there's a big difference in physical capability.

 

One thing I don't understand is the argument that it's mastering that matters and not speed and here is why: Isn't the process of cutting the record to 45 part of the mastering? Isn't mastering literally the act of putting the music onto a physical medium? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

 

While the debate was going on, I managed to spin both my SRX and 45 versions of Free For All.

 

And the 45 trumped the SRX, I’d bet

 

Only when it spins clockwise

 

all 45s have bettered the 33s from my experience. Analogue Productions too, buy of course they are the same thing, different jackets. But…the 33s are really good. I also wouldnt say one trumps or destroys the other. The 45s are just a little bit better, more open, more realistic, smoother.

 

But Tim, you haven't represented my position exactly. Yes, mere cutting speed can affect the quality of the sound. @Greenmonster2420 points out, Rumours sounds better at 45rpm than at 33 even though Steve said he mastered them the same way.

It's that both the cutting and the playback are more capable of higher fidelity at 45rpm. You can cut a 45 with greater dynamics. The stylus has an easier time with navigating and picking up nuance and dynamics.

If you master something brighter, it will sound brighter. But that's not what we're talking about with regard to superiority of the 45rpm format.

I appreciate that you do acknowledge that cutting at 45 can provide an advantage. But it's potential is greater than you think. That's not to say that an album can be cut at 45rpm and the engineers don't take advantage of the format.

I have had discussions with Joe Harley about this. He presided over both the Music Matters 33s and the 45s. He produced the 33s because many wanted the albums at that speed. But he personally prefers the 45s. He knows that 45rpm is the superior format. At the time, he asked me not to pass that along to the group here as he said to me, "I'm trying to sell records." But he stressed that 45rpm is the superior format. "It's physics," he said.

 

Wow. That was a great buy somebody got!

 

Could be your system or your ears, man. Nothing wrong with that. To each his/her own. And yes, a poorly mastered 45 will be worse than a wonderfully mastered 33, so there are variables at play.

For you, your system and ears minimize the advantages, Unfortunately. Sorry about that.

 

It's not like one hears a 33 and it sucks. Some 33s can be fantastic. But then the 45 sounds more open, more natural, with greater ease. The type of sound qualities that come closer to the live experience.

 

From everything we’ve heard about how Steve did Rumours, that would seem to be a good litmus test for anyone wondering or on the fence about whether speed alone (I.e. no purposeful different mastering choices) makes a difference.

If you directly compare both and don’t think the 45rpm sounds better, 45rpm probably isn’t worth pursuing. If you think the 45rpm sounds better, then you/your system may gain something from 45rpm.

As far as blind testing, it may not be allowed on this forum in a debate, but personally I find it useful in my own comparisons to try and take expectation bias out of my own judgements. As much as I want and try not to let knowledge of what I know I’m listening to influence me, I’ve had too many cases where it creeps in and confuses the situation. Others may be better at this than me, but I’ve found it invaluable in trying to really make an objective conclusion on gear, pressings, and other comparisons.

Also, I don’t know if we’ve ever heard of an example of someone saying “I couldn’t do everything I wanted to do on the 33rpm version due to limitations imposed by the speed, but 45rpm opened up more options for me and I mastered that the way I wanted”, but if there was, that would be an interesting comparison as well, though not apples to apples.

 

One thing I've noted is the that the biggest improvements of 45 vs 33 typically occurs on albums are 40+ minutes (ala Seven Steps to Heaven). I have the 33 of Headhunters but I'm interested in the 45 for this reason. I'm sure there can be differences on other albums just over 36+ minutes as well since as that starts to fall right outside the optimal space per side for a 33.

At times I do think it is overkill when the album is less than 36-40 minutes but that is to not say improvements aren't there.

Just some thoughts, nothing definitive here.

 

If a spectrogram compares two recordings and cannot detect a single difference in frequencies or dynamics, it’s no longer about ears or systems. At least not what can be described as “head and shoulders above” superiority of one pressing over another.

Read up on how our minds can change our hearing. It’s a well documented phenomenon. One believes that one record will sound better than another and he hears it.

I must also correct you. I was citing some specific examples where a 45 and 33 are simply no different in response to an opinion that they are never the same. You’re turning it into a general. Nowhere did I say I cannot hear the difference. I hear the difference when there is a difference.

All the Music Matters 45s and 33s sound completely different and I prefer the 45s in every case. But again, these are different masterings so the degree to which what speed they were cut at plays a role is simply impossible to quantify.

 

What we hear cannot be fully captured via a spectrogram. An auditory scientist would be the first to tell you this.

We don't listen to graphs. We listen to a sequence of air pressure variations. The way these compound and affect human hearing cannot be captured in a graph.

There is more to music than frequencies. The spectrogram argument is silly.

Additionally, not only is there plenty of stuff happening that is not captured by the spectrogram, but to properly read one goes far beyond comparing "peaks". It would take a large amount of practice and probably require some proper training to be able to properly comprehend what is in a spectrogram, which, again, is not everything.

EDITING to add that the bias argument is also silly. I have bought records that were proclaimed here to be the "holy grail". Yet they didn't sound that great to me. I went into the listening session thinking I had the best this record could ever be, and found, nope, overblown hype. First press Revolver vs a two box cut I bought for $20. RL Zip II vs a UK Plum. Hendrix Marino cuts (didn't think they would be the best, but very good. Not so much). Dylan mono box. Beatles mono box (very good, but not tops to me personally).

Y'all need to trust your ears more and not hype or graphs. If you can't hear it, that's fine! But telling other people it's just bias and they couldn't tell the difference in a blind test is utter BS. Maybe it's not audible to you, but is to others for WHATEVER reason. Maybe one system can't show the difference. Maybe another's system NEEDs the benefit to fully reproduce what is on the disc. Who cares?

 

I think it’d be helpful if you read what I write a bit more attentively.

I am allowing for minor differences that cannot be captured by recording two LPs with the exact same equipment and reviewing the differences.

What I don’t allow for is the notion that one pressing completely “blows another away” and similar hyperbole when recording both shows that they don’t have a single difference.

Seven Steps To Heaven has zero difference on 33 and 45. I think Smith was able to cut the exact same thing onto 33 that Marino put on 45. He probably just reviewed the notes and was able to do the exact same thing on the exact same equipment at Sterling. If you hear the 45 as “head and shoulders above” the 33 I believe that’s what you hear. It’s not what I heard and to me the 45 is a waste of space and an extra $20. Not a thing more.

 

The bolded point is all that matters. I stand by what I hear, but take no issue if you hear differently. It's the telling others what they hear is due to bias or whatever that I take issue with. Nope, it's what I hear on my system when I play the two records. I'm not going to speculate on why you can't or didn't hear it. Doesn't matter one iota to me either way

 

I'll just surrender my audiophile credentials card now - I don't have an auditory scientist on speed dial

 

There's plenty of reading available on line. And if you don't currently see an audiologist, I'd recommend it. In addition to getting checked out, some probing questions and conversation can go a long way . And get fit for a custom pair of ear plugs if you see live, amplified music regularly

As its the case with most things, the folks who actually study the science will tell you we know only a limited amount. It's the layman that takes the science and applies it as gospel, thinking we know everything. Good thing the scientists keep plugging away when others think all is explained - else we would still believe Earth is the center of the universe and the world is flat.

 

I probably should get checked out. I have post-covid tinnitus since last June that hasn't gone away, and flared up after the booster last fall. Not that anything can really be done.

wait what

 

Im thinking about snagging a few more releases. Out of these, which 3 would you guys pick? Taking a poll. All 33rpm besides the Tyner

Sidewinder
Something Else
Right Now!
Maiden Voyage
Idle Moments
Speak No Evil
Real McCoy (this one is the only 45)


Keep in mind that I have classic series versions of all of these besides Right Now. Id be looking for the biggest step up in quality from the classic series as opposed to quality of music. They are all on similar levels for me tbh

 

Do you have any of these from other releases? AP45, BNC, etc?

EDIT I should have read the last paragraph . Any AP 45s or originals/Liberty pressings?