Thank you for that; I do get opinionated on here at times, like a lot of us do, but I think it is out of enthusiasm for great music and we all love different kinds. I think of this forum as a giant giant .....GIANT family...we may not agree but we are hear for the same reasons. That being said, we are all real people in a real world with real problems; every day is not perfect. We all have things we deal with that are not always good; we cannot always be up or enthusiastic about life. I am always going to stand by any member who needs a kind word or comment regardless of if we agree or disagree about music. It matters, but life, civility and supporting each other in any way we can is important. It is far more important to support each others feelings and needs than it is to bicker over things we like or do not like in music. Thank you for being on this thread as it shows you care about people. God Bless!!!!
I'm guessing Tiny Tim was somewhere on the autism spectrum. On one hand he had difficulty holding a normal job and lived with his parents until well into his 30s. On the other hand, he had an encyclopedic knowledge of (and was obsessed with) early American popular song and could brilliantly mimic the vocal styles.
This is yet another one of those threads with people who are not qualified in any way sprouting inessential opinions. It's not sexy, it's not fun, it's a tragedy, and you know nothing. With respect to any poster who is qualified in the field of mental health and found the energy to post.
I just finished reading Kristen Hersh' (Throwing Muses, 50FootWave and solo) biography, Rat Girl. She details some early mental health issues that she had, including a manic episode that resulted in her hospitalization. What I found interesting was her fear that her efforts to address her issues would lead to her losing her ability to write music. What if her illness was her muse? Rat Girl - Wikipedia
It’s important to remember that schizophrenia wasn’t caused by trauma alone. It’s a genetic disorder that is affected by environment. What I was saying is, while an extreme amount of drugs combined with underlying mental health issues is definitely not a great idea - there were more factors in his life than just being been an acid casualty. LSD alone does not cause schizophrenia. As to your point about fame and pressure - look at Brian Wilson’s first break-down in 1964, long before he first tried LSD. Pressure can be traumatic, there are plenty of professionals that had high pressure careers (lawyers, doctors etc.) that experienced break-downs that triggered schizophrenia. I remember one man who used to go from pub to pub with a bunch of crumpled papers, ranting about law. The patrons wrote him off as a bum, but I found out he was once a Q.C. (Queens Council - the highest legal professional in Australia). We’ll never know what kind of trip Syd had or if it triggered some inner demons, but it’s not like he was a “normal” guy one moment that took a lot LSD and came back a “looney”. There were a lot of other external factors happening for him that would have contributed. We put a lot of faith in the storytellers that knew him at the time, but also remember that the people telling the stories were in their early 20’s, in the 1960’s and most importantly- not Syd Barrett.
Well put.....same with Greeny....it is noted he was picked on as a kid, working class kid, but lead a fairly normal life at home. He felt that at times he was not as good as others, he was quiet sometimes just a bit of a loner. He had tried LSD well before Munich incident. He had pressure on him as truly he was Fleetwood Mac. He wrote the original songs, he picked the blues songs they were going to cover, he provided the lead and often rhythm as Jeremy quickly became a liability as he was a lazy little fella who only wanted to do Elmore James, a few other standards, and imitations. He was never the foil to Greeny that Jeremy had from Peter on his songs. Later Danny came in to fill the void, but FM was Peter through and through! Peter knew what people wanted to hear. He had a lot going on, the weight was on him, he had done acid before, he went to Munich and afterward his playing got even more free form, but he started questioning himself and the biz, he wrote Green Manalishi from a bad dream, and he went to a place he had to go to escape what had become a burden to him; it was no longer fun.
I think people need to understand there is a difference between schizoaffective disorder and schizophrenia. Both Brian and Syd were being treated for Schizoaffective disorder, hence lithium. Schizoaffective disorder has been found to have a connection to LSD use: Evidence supports the association of LSD use with panic reactions, prolonged schizoaffective psychoses and post-hallucinogen perceptual disorder Adverse consequences of lysergic acid diethylamide - PubMed Schizoaffective Disorder usually has a distinct/prominent depression, mania, etc., mood disorder aspect to it that Schizophrenia does not. Both involve delusions, hallucinations, confusion, etc., but a someone experiencing Schizophrenia is usually experiencing the hallucinations, delusions, etc., most prominently. Whilst someone experiencing Schizoaffective Disorder will be experiencing depression, mania, etc., most prominently with some hallucinations, delusions, etc.,
Lithium is for Schizoaffective Disorder (because of mood order component), not Schizophrenia. Schizoaffective Disorder is connected with LSD (ab)use. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.1993.tb02018.x
Interestingly enough, the mind expanding properties of psychedelics (used in an appropriate therapeutic setting) are now being harnessed to treat mental illness: Spoiler: After a Wisconsin man in his mid-60s tried his first dose of magic mushrooms he finally felt able to deal with his lingering childhood traumas. Growing up, his parents physically abused him and peers bullied him for having Asperger syndrome. “I was never quite normal to everyone else, so I was always ostracized,” he recalled. “There were some black eyes and broken ribs. I got my front teeth knocked out when I was 2 years old.” The man, who lives in the south-central part of the state and asked to remain anonymous to protect his career, continued dealing with trauma and post-traumatic stress disorder throughout adulthood. He eventually took antidepressants to cope, but he said they made him feel like a zombie. In 2019, he tried a different drug that proved to be transformative: magic mushrooms, a psychedelic with hallucinogenic effects. During his first trip, the same phrase echoed in his brain: “I love you, I have to let go.” “Eventually I let go of my emotional baggage,” he said, “and as soon as I did, it was as though I was in the presence of pure love for the first time in my life.” Since then, he has continued self-medicating with varying doses of the illicit drug to treat his PTSD. “Magic mushrooms allowed me to feel at peace and radically changed my view of the world,” he said. “My entire life has changed.” The man is part of a wave of people around the state and nation who are turning to psychoactive substances for relief from mental health struggles. Once associated with the 1960s counterculture era, psychedelics are generating renewed interest from scientists, investors, businesses and research institutions, including the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Madison, in particular, is a leader in this psychedelic renaissance as the state’s flagship university churns out new research on the potentially therapeutic effects of hallucinogenic drugs — from psilocybin, the chemical found in magic mushrooms, to MDMA (ecstasy) and LSD. In August, UW-Madison opened the Transdisciplinary Center for Research in Psychoactive Substances, expanding upon clinical psychedelic studies that have been on campus for the past seven years. And this fall, the UW School of Pharmacy launched the nation’s first master’s program in psychoactive pharmaceutical investigation. Cody Wenthur, a professor and director of the master’s program, said the findings could serve as a catalyst for change in the country’s mental health crisis. “We have record numbers of people dying from drug overdose, from suicide and from other preventable tragedies that arise from poor mental health,” he said. “To simply stick with the status quo is not acceptable. “There are too many people who need help to not explore all the promising alternatives and approaches that raise their profile.” A hopeful alternative The research thus far, he said, show psychedelics — when used in conjunction with psychotherapy — can be helpful to those with PTSD, anxiety, depression and even addiction. This offers another option to patients with mental health disorders who do not respond to traditional medications, such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs. There's also little to no evidence that these compounds are addictive, Wenthur said. In one 2020 study of 24 adults with major depression, Johns Hopkins Medicine researchers found that two doses of psilocybin, given with psychotherapy, “produced rapid and large reductions in depressive symptoms.” Most participants showed improvement, with more than half achieving remission one month after treatment. Alan Ferguson, a 57-year-old former police officer living near Mount Horeb, is one such patient who turned to psychoactives as an alternative to antidepressants. In 2018, the symptoms from his mental health disorders became so unbearable that he “decided on a final course of action” to end his life. He gave up hope on his medications, canceling the rest of his upcoming psychiatric appointments. Sensing Ferguson’s despair, his doctor urged him to try ketamine, a powerful anesthetic and dissociative drug. “I didn’t really have a whole lot of hope for it because everything else had failed,” Ferguson said. Yet hours after trying the drug at the Milwaukee ketamine clinic, the suicidal thoughts that plagued him his whole life no longer weighed him down. “The thoughts of ‘I need to be dead’ weren’t there. That’s what was missing,” he said. “I had never known what it was like to live without those thoughts always present.” “I wasn't optimistic at all,” Ferguson added, “but literally within hours, all of a sudden I had a life that I had never known.” Your brain on drugs The effects of these drugs can be literally mind-altering, Wenthur explained in public lecture on psychoactive substances earlier this month. In fact, psychiatrist Humphry Osmond first invented the word ‘psychedelic’ in the 1950s, coming up with a rhyme: “To fathom Hell or soar angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic.” “The word is generated from the roots ‘psyche,’ meaning mind, and ‘delos,’ meaning to manifest,” Wenthur said. “Psychedelics are drugs that make the mind manifest, and you can experience your mind in a way that you're not doing when under normal consciousness.” He described the different compounds that produce hallucinations and alter the senses, some of which are created in labs, like the synthetic compound LSD. Others — like psilocybin in magic mushrooms, mescaline (a component of peyote) and dimethyltryptamine, or DMT (an element in ayahuasca) — are derived from natural products. Ketamine and MDMA don’t necessarily fall under the psychedelics category, Wenthur explained, but they have been “co-opted in the psychedelic nomenclature” due to their psychedelic-adjacent effects. “These two compounds have much of the strongest evidence, in a clinical sense, for their use and are the furthest ahead in terms of approval and application,” Wenthur said. While illegal for recreational use, ketamine is currently accepted in medical settings for short-term sedation and anesthesia. In 2019, the Food and Drug Administration also approved a ketamine nasal spray for treatment-resistant depression, available only from certified practitioners. Peggy Bull, a 68-year-old from Waukesha, said she paid nearly $5,000 for ketamine infusions — at $450 per session — from Ketamine Milwaukee. Though she has since stopped receiving infusions due to the cost and is now back on SSRIs, Bull said ketamine was one of the only drugs that worked in treating her depression. Each trip, she recalled, felt like watching The Beatles’ “Yellow Submarine” animated music video. “When it was over, I just felt peaceful and happy,” Bull said of her first time trying ketamine. “I woke up the next day feeling different: I didn’t feel depressed, I didn't feel sad.” The negative thoughts she had always ruminated on no longer bothered her. “It was an acceptance,” she said. “You feel really transcended, like you’re looking back at yourself from outer space, and the problems seem manageable.” When coming down from the drug, she said she felt true relief. “I don't think that ever in my life I didn't feel depressed,” she said, “and it was so wonderful to feel change.” How psychedelics can act as catalysts for change, Wenthur said, is by “synergistic activity at the level of neuroplasticity.” In other words, these substances can induce long-term behavioral changes through perceptual and cognitive alterations to the brain. “We know that individuals who have mental health disorders can get stuck in this cognitive rut,” Wenthur said. “The neurons that fire together wire together, so if you're continuously ruminating on the negative aspects of yourself or your perception, those connections actually become stronger over time.” “Psychedelics can weaken those old connections, break down networks and help form new connections as those neurites and synapses regrow, potentially allowing cognitive escape,” he said. “Psychedelics actually promote the restructuring of neurons, which are the units in your brain that are communicating with each other to help you do all the things that you do every day.” Still, he warned that psychedelics alone may not be enough to solidify a new pattern of behavior. Additional therapy is needed after treatment because one’s brain is in a “plastic state, ready to accept new information.” “What you do with that state can determine whether you improve or whether you go back to your old behavior, or perhaps even get worse,” Wenthur said in the lecture, explaining that many studies involve psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy and are not focused solely on the drug itself. He also cautioned that drugs aren’t necessarily good for each individual. “All drugs are this way,” he said. “The right dose at the right time in the right person can be therapeutic. But the wrong dose in the wrong person at the wrong time can be toxic.” For example, some people have experienced elevated heart rate and blood pressure in psychedelic trials. Other common symptoms include headaches, nausea and dizziness, Wenthur said. A psychedelic resurgence Since trying ketamine, Bull has looked into shamanism and the use of plant-based psychoactives, saying, “there’s a wisdom there that we’re just omitting from our culture.” Wenthur explained people have been using psychedelics for millennia, often in religious or spiritual settings, “but it's only in the last 20 years that we've started seriously thinking about psychedelics as potential FDA-approved pharmaceuticals.” In the 1950s, a boom in psychological and psychiatric research yielded promising early results on the therapeutic effects of psychedelics. But by the ‘70s, these studies would come to a halt, ending major psychedelic research programs for more than two decades. The gap in psychoactive research comes from the passage of the 1970s Controlled Substance Act, which listed psychedelics as the most restrictive classification Schedule I, deeming them illegal and illegitimate for medical use. Yet the psychedelic tide is turning: Denver, Ann Arbor, Michigan, and two cities in California have decriminalized psilocybin. Last year, Oregon also voted to legalize psilocybin for mental health treatment at licensed centers. And this year, Seattle and four cities in Massachusetts voted for decriminalization. California is additionally in the process of reviewing a bill that would decriminalize some psychedelics. Following a dormant period of research, Wisconsin is now seeing a revitalized focus on psychoactives coming out of UW-Madison. According to Andrew Hellpap, a spokesman at UW Health, the hospital has treated “about 40 patients at a given time since the ketamine program started in 2016.” Two years prior, in 2014, UW-Madison also became the site of the first Phase 1 clinical trial for psilocybin. Day Host-Jablonski, who lives in Madison, participated in the study, describing herself as “one of the privileged few people who have had a legal psychedelic experience.” Host-Jablonski was administered increasing doses of psilocybin across three sessions. She said two therapists and a team of medical staff supervised each of the participants. The research center’s environment influenced much of the psilocybin’s effects, she said, including a clinical room “outfitted beautifully with art and really comfortable furniture.” Researchers also set up a musical playlist curated for their trips. “The experience of that medicine was like an expanded mental state,” she said. “There's heightened perception, there's auditory and visual hallucinations and illusions. You go into a very introspective place and are able to do that dreaming internal work.” This experience led her to create the Madison Psychedelic Society, an organization dedicated to spreading awareness of the science behind psychedelics and their benefits. This year, Host-Jablonski’s Psychedelic Society worked in focus groups with Wenthur and Olayinka Shiyanbola, an associate pharmacy professor, to share local attitudes toward psychedelics and barriers to increasing diversity in research on psychoactives. “The idea that we can leverage expanded states of awareness and non-normative mental states for healing both normalizes mental health issues and offers a much wider understanding of what the human psyche is, what the human spirit is, what the human mind is,” Host-Jablonski said. Since the 2014 trial, UW-Madison’s psychedelic research has expanded further. The university has four ongoing clinical trials on the use of psychotherapy with psychedelics, including psilocybin and MDMA, as a treatment for PTSD, major depression, opioid addiction and methamphetamine use disorder. Some are part of multi-site Phase 2 and 3 trials making their way toward new drug applications with the FDA, according to the School of Pharmacy website. Another study in Wenthur’s lab, sponsored by the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation, seeks to improve recruitment and retention of minority populations in psychedelic trials and treatment. UW paving the way In the first annual Microdose Awards — the largest conference for businesses in psychedelic medicine — this November, UW-Madison was named university of the year for psychedelic science and innovations, beating other key players in the sector including Harvard and Johns Hopkins universities. Wenthur said the Transdisciplinary Center for Research differs from other institutions because it integrates liberal arts and humanities fields with scientific studies. The master’s program in psychoactive pharmaceutical investigation is also particularly unique, he said, because it focuses more on research rather than clinical training. Now through its first semester, the master’s program at the pharmacy school enrolled 31 students to “help generate a locally and nationally robust workforce of pharmaceutical scientists who have the scientific, regulatory, ethical, historical and cultural footing to become leaders in this space,” Wenthur said. Samantha Tabone, a 27-year-old student in the program, is the vice president of research and development for PurMinds NeuroPharma, a Canadian startup studying therapeutics, including psychedelics, for neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer’s and dementia. Noting the 1970s ban on research in the field, Tabone said she pursued her master’s to help the scientific community catch up on its study of psychedelics. While her peers come from a diverse set of career backgrounds, Tabone said she is one of the only master’s students focused on the business side of the psychedelic space. She’s particularly passionate about protecting patients from exploitative practices — like businesses solely looking to reap profits from psychoactive substances. Tabone compared this to the legalization of cannabis in Canada, in which companies quickly went public to take advantage of the market hype. “Yet very infrequently do they actually follow through with a meaningful breakthrough, innovative product or offering that they promised,” she said. “For a lot of the companies that are traded publicly, you’ll see this rush where they're not grounded in fact, and a lot of them make claims about being able to produce certain products or achieve milestones that just aren't realistic if you know even a little bit about the science and the policies.” Tabone added that the UW-Madison program can educate the general community and “baseline their understanding of the potential of psychedelics in a very responsible and ethical manner.” “We want to try and encourage psychedelic science while also avoiding a second resurgence of the War on Drugs,” she said. “That's definitely why I'm at the program. As a chemist, of course I love the hard science that comes with the program, but representing an ethical response to market interest is what I’ve tried to do.” According to Wenthur, the general path for preclinical work to FDA approval takes around 10 to 15 years. But compounds like MDMA and psilocybin are nearing the final stages of the process. The FDA has granted psilocybin with breakthrough therapy designation — an expedited pathway to approval if safety and efficacy benchmarks are reached — for major depressive disorder and treatment-resistant depression, as well as MDMA for PTSD. He said the UW-Madison study’s sponsor, a nonprofit called MAPS, Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, will likely file MDMA for FDA approval within the next two years. “It's important to note these are not going to be magic bullet therapies where you take one dose and people get better forever,” Wenthur said. “That's extremely unlikely to be the case. “Nevertheless, there are pretty exciting preliminary results, and we look forward to seeing what happens in the Phase 3 trial, which is the largest and last trial before FDA approval.” Getting past the stigma For now, locals looking for respite outside of antidepressants can only find psychedelics either illicitly or by participating in clinical studies. The Wisconsin man who takes mushrooms illegally said he’d like to see the substance decriminalized “because it grows freely in nature” and for its potential to help others. “We have to get past the stigma and we have to start treating people,” he said. “I never want anybody to suffer what I've suffered through, and if this can help them, then they should do it.” One organization, Decriminalize Nature Wisconsin, launched only a month ago, seeks to decriminalize plant-based drugs in the state and advocates for equitable access to these substances. Eddie Sturkey, a co-director of Decriminalize Nature and an organizer at the Milwaukee Psychedelic Society, said those who attend the meetings aren’t necessarily “stereotypical psychedelic drug users” looking to get high. Instead, nearly all come to learn about the healing purposes of psychedelics. “It's becoming more and more part of the national conversation,” Sturkey said. “We feel like it's important to help ensure that certain communities have easy access to the healing properties of these plants and fungi.” He feels optimistic that Decriminalize Nature will make headway with psychedelics. “It's an area that is growing so quickly and so fast, but it's literally just at the beginning stages, too,” he said. “It’s already been incredibly interesting to see how, across the country, state legislators and local politicians are supportive and interested in learning more about this movement and the benefits that it can have for their constituents.” According to Sturkey, these drugs should be taken seriously for their potential to save lives. Ferguson, for example, has continued taking ketamine every three weeks at UW Health in Madison for his depression and PTSD. During each appointment, he heads to the hospital’s ambulatory procedure center, where he is injected with ketamine through an IV drip. Lying in a hospital stretcher, he slips on an eye mask and pops in his ear buds, tuning out his surroundings. He listens to harmonic gospel music at full volume as his consciousness slowly drifts away. “Some people call it life-changing,” Ferguson said. “I call it life-giving.” Psychedelics are a class of hallucinogenic drugs that can alter one's senses, perception, cognition and mood. Common psychedelics include psilocybin, ayahuasca, LSD and DMT. Dissociatives are a class of drugs, including ketamine and PCP, that distort one's perceptions. They are not technically considered to be hallucinogens, but, when taken in high doses, can elicit similar mind-bending effects and feelings of detachment from the mind and body. DMT, or dimethyltryptamine, is an active ingredient in ayahuasca, a plant-based psychedelic. Ayahuasca is made through a concoction of plants and has been used in South America in Indigenous religious ceremonies for centuries. Ketamine is a strong dissociative anesthetic drug that is currently legal for treatment-resistant depression. It is not classified as a psychedelic, but can lead to visual and auditory distortions. LSD, known scientifically as lysergic acid diethylamide or colloquially as "acid," is a synthetic chemical. The drug is manufactured from a substance found in ergot fungus, which infects rye and other grains. MDMA, known as "ecstacy" or "molly," is a lab-made hallucinogenic drug, which additionally acts as a stimulant. Considered to be an empathogen, or a drug that heightens empathy, MDMA can prompt euphoria and feelings of closeness. Mescaline is a psychedelic that derives naturally in seeds from different types of cacti. It is the primary active ingredient in the small cactus peyote. The hallucinogen has been used by Native Americans and Indigenous people in Mexico for thousands of years in spiritual and healing rituals. When used in religious ceremonies, it is exempt from its Schedule I drug classification. Psilocybin is a natural substance and key ingredient found in mushrooms. When one consumes psilocybin, the body converts it to psilocin, the chemical responsible for mushrooms' psychoactive effects.
Its definitely important to point out the nuances, it sits on the Schizophrenia spectrum. These days if we don’t understand something we invent a spectrum for it, luckily it hasn’t translated to music or we’d only have about 3 genres. Lithium though they throw at anything.
Yeah, I've seen a few times on reports here they reckon the acid could CURE some mental issues. But of course, the law won't allow it. Complex indeed.
Lithium use is actually down from the 60s 70s 80s even 90s due to its toxicity and interactions with other drugs. It’s main value is still in the treatment of bipolar, particularly for rapidly cycling, extreme mania, and those whose depressive states can involve suicidal ideation.
If properly dosed and under medical supervision, it can help some people. The problem is knowing the family history of mental illness and what the triggers might be. We just don’t know. Indeed, it is complex.
Well.. I don’t think it’s the same for all artists and writers. Some. I also don’t think it goes hand in hand. Some were, some were not.
lithium is highly toxic, it’s a heavy metal, commonly found in a car battery. The way it works though……they actually don’t know how it works! It loves the cerebellum - that’s the part of your brain that’s in the back at the top of your spinal column, its purpose is to control your body’s movement or not if your paralyzed by injury .it’s toxicity causes something called ataxia which is a lot like being drunk only not as fun. You’ve not taken lithium or have been diagnosed and re diagnosed and re diagnosed each time being prescribed another medication that erases parts of your life. I know how all this works, I’ve had decades of dealing with it, I’ve had decades of helping other people deal with it. The thing to bear in mind with pubmeds is it’s just medically published research mostly by undergrads as part of their career path.
We're not talking about recreational use. Rather, the psychedelic agents would be administered in a controlled setting in tandem with psychotherapy. Psychedelics can alter the connections in the brain, which, in certain situations can be beneficial. PBS's Nova had an interesting program on therapeutic psychedelic: Can Psychedelics Cure?
I found this great podcast about Syd Barrett hosted by psychiatrists from the Mental Health Arts festival. Dust 2016: The life of Syd Barrett It’s a must listen for posters here, as they talk about a lot of the myths around Barrett and give a great insight into his condition and life.
I know of many people with a depressive mental illness that are highly intelligent. High intellect has also been linked to mental illness or alcohol/drug dependency.
That is a fantastic listen and supports pretty much everything I believe about Barrett. Everyone should listen to this and then rethink whether they are still so willing to believe everything that's been presented to them as fact about Barrett.
