My Conversation With An Online Vinyl Retailer... Returning Defective Vinyl.

I own about 5000+ albums(plus loads of 45's and 78's), about 30% of them "new", the rest older, original. Can't think of one issue that I've had where a record is "unplayable". Was buying for 20 years between the late 60's-mid 8's, then sold everything(dumb), then started buying vinyl again in the late 90's. Oh, and worked record retail, and for record distributors from the late 70's to the early 90's. I've known both sides of the coin. Picky buyers, and scumbag dealers. Bottom line is, and always has been, that if you're buying vinyl you better have a pretty big tolerance for noise, warp, marks on the vinyl. If you don't want that, if you expect perfection (which I get, given the cost of some of these new pressings) then you will be disappointed. Either learn how to deal with that stuff because overall the sound is great and buying and owning vinyl is fun, or use some other medium which is not prone to the problems of vinyl. There are so many nowadays why aggravate yourself with one that keeps pissing you off? I know I wouldn't.

 

The sky high prices on a lot of these pressings have led to high expectations. If a label is looking to put titles out at list prices $29.99 and up and cannot deliver a flat, centered, properly pressed LP to retail , they should re-think if they should be in that market. The distributors and retailers should be more demanding. If a label is shipping out crap pressings over and over, boycott them.

 

That only means everyone is moving into streaming instead of buying music,not that vinyl sales are huge.

 

Agree with most of what you wrote. Before CDs came along we got along really well with vinyl.

 

That's why I prefer buying from a local record store. I had a chat with one owner last week regarding defects as I was there to return a defective record. He said that if there was a local distributor (which was the case), the record store has no problems returning defects. The only problem they have are with imports (no local distribution), but they will still offer either a reimbursement or
an exchange if the defect doesn't seem to be a batch defect.

 

Right. For years my collection, and a lot of my friends, looked like ol' Lester's

 

If you do, prepare for a LONG wait. I've never had an order take less than 13 days and some have taken almost a month. After this happening repeatedly, I went to trying every six months or so as I do appreciate their mailers. I stopped ordering last year and my flow now is read their email, then go right to Amazon. I tried to support them. Two to four weeks is utterly ridiculous in this day and age. Elusive Disc is a few days and of course Amazon is 2 days, if Prime. I don't understand Soundstage. And they always have some excuse when I ask them about it. I think they are more in the business of, and far more interested in, selling hardware. I question whether they even stock vinyl. I have ordered very common titles and to take that long, I doubt they actually had them in stock.

 

Despite my complaint above, I have to concur that as far as defects, I had no issue returning a couple at all. The lady I spoke with was extremely nice. And I don't return vinyl unless it is pretty darn bad.

 

Back a few years ago when vinyl was on a very slippery slop and stuff was being pressed in very low numbers, I understood the no returns policy, as an ex record store owner. But, we're hitting volume now and the labels need to change their policy. It is very unfair to the store owner, who is making laughingly low margins on new vinyl, and obviously the consumer, any of which are buying it FOR better sound in the first place, not to live with defects. I don't even see how a vinyl dealer makes any money. Take a look at how many titles they stock that those of us here know will likely never sell at anything other than a loss. My local dealer is getting quite a collection of old Record Store Day titles from previous years, and they have a massive "mark down" bin which is now maybe 10 bins at 100 records deep. A dead loss sitting there. I don't envy dealers who participate in RSD, but if they sell used, I suppose they can make it up on that. It clearly brings in a lot of traffic. The mfg need to help out the dealers more, if they don't accept returns still. I spoke to one of the guys I know well there and it seems like with some lablels, it's loosening up a bit.

I do buy a ton of new vinyl and I have to say, it is much better than it was in the 70's and 80's. I return very little. If anything, it was far worse about three years ago. I've noticed that with titles I buy, the quality has improved from then. I do seem to have more issues with really popular titles (that pretty much always seem to sell for a lot less as well) such as Taylor Swift, which too me multiple returns just to get one copy that was passable, and other high volume artists in that vein.

 

I don't disagree with you, but there are reasonable people who still want a very nice copy of some new records, and are prepared to buy multiple copies to get one.
Take the new Beck Sea Change release for example, this album reissue has been highly anticipated,
lots of people missed the Mofi limited edition a few years ago that now sells for sky high prices. Isn't it reasonable that a record fan can buy a copy of the reissue,
pressed at Pallas in Germany no less, that isn't badly warped, and doesn't have non-fill? I've had 3 copies so far, and haven't been able the get the first record
that is a reasonable play copy. So yes, i'm disappointed, but i'm also prepared to pay for more than one copy to get a great one that's flat, and quiet and doesn't have
loud sections of non-fill. Sure, pops and clicks, there will always be some, not talking about perfection here. The frustrating part is that most of the time when i've
gotten a 'dud' copy, i'll just buy a replacement and that copy is usually fine, just based on the odds, but lately, several replacement copies i've got are also duds.
The search continues.

I remember when Courtney Barnett's album came out, I lined up at my local shop the morning of release before they opened, and when i got it home the thing was
shaped like a soup bowl. No biggie, i payed for a second copy. But it gets tiresome over time, when again and again, these new reissue programs like Pink Floyd,
Bowie, Beatles, Zeppelin, they can have significant quality issues to the point where it's just expected the first copy you buy is likely to be a dud. It's disappointing
when the replacement is also a dud. It's easy for some to dismiss this as warps aren't a big deal, or that it's just part of vinyl - but you know what? it's not, because
lots of times you get a perfect copy, and it just makes you wonder, why should i accept a dud?

 

Mainly because, as you said, "..overall the sound is great...".

I don't have as many LPs as you state above, I only have 2000. Very, very few contain "noise, warps, marks on vinyl" that you mention above. If you take good care of vinyl it generally has none of this. And I have many that are over 40 years old. So there is really nothing to "deal with". The few returns I have made are not a big deal to me. ( I estimated about 15 in a previous post)

On the other hand, for me digital music is now mostly on while I am busy doing something else, with a few exceptions (AF, some SACDs and assorted other selections). For background music only. I can't explain it scientifically, but listening to digital and paying close attention, at any volume, just does not grab my attention or make me feel as good as vinyl. I can listen to an exceptional CD, but not 3, 4, 5, 6 CDs in a row.

There is no sacrifice for being into vinyl. I'm just glad it's still around, and made the comeback, or I would be sentenced to listening to digital sources only.

 

I agree that if you can't play the record because defects are so severe that the noise overwhelms the music then that is a problem that the whomever one bought it from should rectify. That said, I've been doing this for a long time. Collecting, hanging out at forums like this, talking others in record stores, and there is no doubt in my mind that over the course of the last 10-15 years, since vinyl has made a very large revitalization in popularity, particularly with people that were brought up on cd's and digital streaming, the complaint factor has gone way up. What a lot of us put up with and dealt with has now become a much bigger problem. Way too many expect(and yes, the expectation is warranted to some degree if you're paying $30 up for these new reissues) an experience that duplicates what is available through cd/streaming. IE no noise, no audible disruption. Especially if you have not only invested a lot on a particular pressing, but on an expensive rig to play it on(this is another issue...people are trying to get complete silence with expensive, small elliptical styli that are hypersensitive to the least imperfect vinyl, as opposed to larger styli, conical, etc) which can require some fairly intensive set up and care.

So again I state that while vinyl is fun, and can yield sonic qualities that better every other medium(imo), it is not for everybody, and if imperfections are going to get in the way of your enjoyment of the medium(and lately that seems to be happening a lot, just from reading experiences of many here) then just don't do it. Maybe the demand for vinyl has made the quality control suffer a lot. So use that for the reason to just not do it. And get the Beck reissue on cd, or stream it.

 

They have virtually zero clout over the labels. Plus i haven't seen any labels or plants listed in this thread that are egregious offenders.

Is it weird I'm only bothered by the heater next to the record rack?

 

If a store is eating the return, then what lesson learned by the label/plant? BTW, most warranted returns I've seen usually only effect more than a small portion of a track.

Look up "listener fatigue". Analog vs digital, good mastering vs. Brick wall and earphones vs. Speakers for a couple hours all have a similar effect.

 

I'm calling bluff. Every month here is a swap meet of some kind and I live in a city with smaller population pull. Different swap organizers/venues get different quality sellers, but everyone has people bringing quality collections all over the pricing spectrum including $100+ stuff that sells. I know which sellers are walking out with 5 grand cash in their pocket.

The key is having organized boxes. With top loading sleeves "sealed" with a piece of scotch tape, fully descriptive stickers the records will stay mint. I've seen buyers and sellers with pocket lights for close inspections since lighting is usually junk in community centers.

Completely ignored in this thread is where exactly the line in drawn between acceptable flaws and genuine returns. Especially issues that are strictly cosmetic and can't be heard.

Secretly I wish there was someone with a "better records" online store like the guy who sells "hot pressings". Picky customers can have 1stop shopping without worry of return for records given thorough visual and play testing.

Only for return frequent customers buying something you think may come back because they are swapping a record or improper handling.

 

Probably didn't work

 

If Lester Bangs was living in NYC or Detroit he'd really need that heater in winter.

 

You're right. But then again it's Bangs we're discussing.

In any event, you've made my point for me. Lots of us did exactly the same thing back in the day. Records were to be played. How they were stored, or prepared, how the stereo was set up, how the speakers were setup, was not an issue, because nobody(at least in my circle...and I still know several folks with monster collections that are doing it the same way) cared. We all cared about the music, and skips and warps and dirty styli etc were not in our universe.

This does not mean that if you pay a lot of money for a record that you shouldn't expect it to be playable. Just that maybe, if it's happening too often that the $30+ album is coming to you in a way that is less then desirable, you either start buying cheaper records, or accept that distributors, pressing plants, labels, are not going to give you the product that want them to, and put up with it. Or move on to another medium.

 

Many many times I play a record that is noisy but then I give a spin on the VPI record cleaner and most if not all noise is not there any more. One of the best investments I made was a record cleaner.

 

Listener fatigue was the big one for me. The difference is obvious if you listen to CD's for a long period of time (for me it was a few years) and then you put a turntable through your same system. I had my table put away for 15 years and found over time I wasn't enjoying music as much. I also found I couldn't turn it up very loud anymore. I assumed my hearing was changing and just chocked it up to that. Then, about 12 years ago, I took my turntable out of the attic just for nostalgia reasons and I just couldn't believe the amazing difference. I could instantly crank it up again, and it was really fun to listen to music. I have found the same to be true of others that have done the same. And, for me there is no doubt I am hearing more material off of vinyl than I did on my CD's. And I have a Krell D/A converter for digital music content, so it certainly wasn't the quality of my equipment degrading the CD sound. Still, it is a challenging path to get to that awesome sound, and I get it that most don't find the journey worth it. But if you love music, I can't see compromising with CD's. I now only listen to them as background music. There is no longer a CD player in my main system, and I have 3000 CD's! However, they are great for my shop. I think both formats have a definite place and we're blessed to have both formats, plus streaming.

 

Isn't the Beck Sea Change Blu ray Audio for about 20 bucks? And it includes the surround mix.

 

All the Floyd reissues I've picked up were dished.

The Beck "Sea Change" reissue was dished; "Guero", non-fill...

I used to think that people who got a lot of bad pressings were just having "bad luck."

I've had a lot of "bad luck" lately; I'd say 4 out of the last 5 new records I bought were warped/dished/non-fill.

That's an alarming trend.

 

WHERE?

 

Sorry to hear you've had bad luck too.

I switched to the EU version, which can be ordered from Amazon.co.uk, it was pressed at Optimal on 180gram,
it differs from the USA one that was pressed at Pallas on 140gram. My Optimal copy is really great.

 

What's that, "Sea Change"?