My Humble review of the Benchmark DAC3 and Topping D90SE

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Tone?, Sep 17, 2021.

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  1. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    In the old days (I'm old), single bit chips were the lower end of DACs and cheaper to make. Take Schiit for example in todays world, their higher end units are multi bit vs the entry level units with the single bit AKM dac chips. That being said, my cheap a$$ Schiit Modi3 with it's single bit AKM sounds excellent! More about the rest of the implementation and analog stage.
     
  2. luckybaer

    luckybaer Thinks The Devil actually beat Johnny

    Location:
    Missouri
    Don't read them?
     
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  3. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    ha right?

    it’s more of an opinion than review.
    I’m mean it’s just me. I’m not John Atikinson from Stereophile magazine.
    I don’t know sh#t.

    just my opinion and my ears. And if someone connects with that then maybe we can assist each other in getting gear that suits our common tastes.

    that’s all. Not trying to prove anything.
     
  4. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    Ha yeah man I’m old too.
    I’m reading up more on multibit vs single bit.
    Fascinating stuff.
     
  5. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    @Agitater

    is the Marantz HD DAC1 truly multibit ?
    And if so maybe the Schiit Yggdrasil will be more towards my liking ?

    I really liked the Benchmark DAC3 but it’s midrange wasn’t as lush as the Marantz and again maybe it’s my small room that didn’t allow the mid from the DAC3 to shine as much.

    Am I liking what I hear from the multibit implementation you think?


    Thanks
     
  6. Ontheone

    Ontheone Poorly Understood Member

    Location:
    Indianapolis
    I have a DAC3 that I use as a secondary unit between my two systems. I feel like it has a great dynamic range and performs dead-on neutral, just like a solid DAC should.

    I'm not sure "lush" is an attribute we should seek from a DAC. I prefer to get added color, if desired, from other areas of my system but not the DAC. Just my opinion.
     
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  7. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco
    no worries man. Yeah you might be right as well.
    Why I said that in a bigger room the Marantz might sound a tad washed out compared to the DAC3.
    The Marantz sounds more like a record to me. Although I haven’t heard a record in years. Sounds very analog. the timbre just sounded a bit more real to me than the DAC3. I spent two months listening just to make sure. Cause the low end on the benchmark is a marvel. Never heard such tight articulate bass like that.

    I don’t know man. I have this theory ( for now) that the source can be a place to add color and the pre and amp should be totally neutral to accommodate further changes.

    but I could be wrong. Always learning.
     
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  8. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    The PCM decoder in the HD DAC1 uses multibit oversampling methods that include - and this is crucial, IMO - noise shaping. Sounds great.

    IMO and to my ears, the Schiit Yggdrasil is one of the best multibit DACs on the market today. It was a very good design right out of the gate. The current flavour that Schiit has dubbed “More is Less” (with its four Texas Instruments DAC chipsets) also seems to work extremely well. Only an audition can tell the tale for any individual and the rest of his system, but the Yggdrasil is in my opinion a very safe bet.

    Continue to enjoy your Marantz HD DAC1. It’s very good. If you want to have some new fun, the Yggdrasil is very, very, good. Just remember that the Yggdrasil maxes out at 24/192 files, so no DSD processing if that matters to you.
     
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  9. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    https://statics.cirrus.com/pubs/proDatasheet/CS4398_DS568F3.pdf#page33

    so is it doing over sampling or retaining the PCM signal like a Schiit multibit does?

    yeah I might like the multibit sound or something.
    I should call Schiit to ask them.
    And like I said, the Marantz might sound a tad washed out in a larger room compared to the DAC3. If anyone wants a killer DAC the benchmark DAC3 to me is the safest bet they can take.

    always learning.

    thanks man !
     
  10. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    It's interesting how divided opinion is on the Topping DACs. Last year I was displaced from my listening room for a while because I moved family members into the house as kind of COVID refugees and I bought an original AKM-chip D90 last year as part of a little alternate system with some other inexpensive modern measures well darlings, like the JD Labs headphone amp, and they completely reordered my whole audio thinking. They were so quiet, so transparent, so free of distortion, and in the case of the Topping so revealing of differences in source material, that it really has me thinking of replacing all my tube gear with modern, higher end, great measuring solid state gear. I did find the DAC sounded best with DSD and upsampled to DSD material where the AKM on board reconstruction filtering is bypassed. Made me start playing around with HQ Player and different filtering schemes for 16/44.1 material too.
     
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  11. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    I love the specs man. But god it sounded blah.

    yeah good exchange of opinions on this topic.

    I heard the black backgrounds as well. Don’t get me wrong. But Geezus the music was gone.
     
  12. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The Cirrus chip is a multibit delta sigma design. Instead of processing a single bit at a time through the delta sigma modulator it processes 2 to 5 bits at a time through the delta sigma modulator (I'm not sure how many bits the Cirrus chip does at a time). It's still a delta sigma design with a modulator and then noise shaping. It's not the sort of DAC that is thought of when discussing multibit DACs like Schiit and Holo Audio and others.

    The multibit DACs by Schiit and the resistor ladder style DACs by Holo Audio, Denafrips, and others are a straight PCM design that process all the bits at once. There is no delta sigma modulator. It's a distinctly different DAC design than delta sigma flavors.
     
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  13. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Of course mine was a different unit with a different chip but the music I heard was what was on the recording. Some were better than the others, in fact that was something that really struck me, how revealing if the differences in soutce material the DAC is. The new cheapnto moderately priced super low distortion low noise gear sounded so revealing and so free of playback artifacts I really felt like I was hearing into the moment of performance more, not listening to a recording. I haven't made more new purchases since but it really has me thinking about how differently really transparent equipment can sound. I've always been a tube and "texture" guy, but this new super low noise and distortion stuff has me rethinking that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
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  14. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Come on in, the water's fine.
     
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  15. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Coming from tubes you might like the Bel Canto stuff.
     
  16. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    Hang on there buddy.
    Hang on there pal
    Don’t derail the thread.
    Bel Canto pusher

    lol
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
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  17. MrEWhite

    MrEWhite Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I got a D90SE and an A90 and they sound fantastic to my ears :D
     
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  18. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    Cool. Enjoy!
     
  19. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    So how does that differ in sound quality having a multibit modulator ?

    thanks
     
  20. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    That's the $64,000 question.

    To find out you'll need to listen to a couple of different true multibit DACs (multibit DACs not based on delta sigma designs) and find out for yourself. DACs like the Schiit multibits, Holo Audio, Denafrips, and some others.

    It's a complex question with many variables. I can't say the true multibit is better than delta sigma. There are too many variables involved. I think the Chord DACs have a neat sound and they're based on a delta sigma design. The Chord DAVE with the M Scaler has absolutely amazing 3D imaging and layering and separation. Better 3D imaging, layering and separation than the Schiit Yggdrasil. The Yggdrasil is still very good in those areas, but the DAVE is thinner in the midrange and doesn't have as much love in the sound. I would prefer the Yggdrasil over the DAVE in my system. But if I had a full tube amp and different headphones I could very likely change my preference. On imaging and 3D and separation and space the DAVE with M Scaler is a fantastic DAC.

    I've also heard, and like, the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC series 1 and 2. They're built around delta sigma chips but implement their own filters and DSP and oversampling. They're fantastic sounding DACs that I like how they sound. And they're delta sigma.

    There are delta sigma DACs that I can like. But in general I tend to prefer true multibit DACs like the Shiits and others.

    I think a big factor in DACs is the filtering and oversampling methods. My sound preferences tend to the linear phase pure sinc function style filters. The delta sigma DACs tend to invite more creative filter designs like apodizing and minimum phase along with more creative noise shaping. It's quite likely that the creative filters and creative noise shaping is what turns me off from delta sigma designs. The pure PCM multibit designs (no delta sigma) tend to focus on linear phase sinc style filters, or NOS, and no noise shaping. So it's quite possible that is the reason I tend to prefer the true multibit pure PCM style DACs.

    I'm always on the look for a next DAC that is better than what I have. Right now I'm looking at a Yggdrasil as a fallback. Or something like a Holo Audio Spring KTE running in NOS mode combined with HQPlayer for high quality pure sinc million tap style linear phase filtering. The Holo Audio DAC option could be neat if I like it combined with HQPlayer for oversampling. The Holo Audio DAC would be a true multibit combined with the style of million tap sinc filter that Chord uses. The best of both worlds for me. Would it work for me? That's the $64,000 question.
     
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  21. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    Thanks!
    Some say the Yggdrasil sounds grainy.
    Have you heard one in your system and is that true?

    @Agitater , you have heard the Yggdrasil as well in your system. Is it grainy sounding ?


    Thanks !
     
  22. Roger P

    Roger P Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond VA
    That's funny I am actually digging my time so far with the D70, I guess it really is system dependent.
    I actually prefer the D70 over the D90.
    I do think my system could use a good tube pre though.....
     
  23. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I had one a few years back. I wouldn't call it grainy per se. If we're talking about "black background," a lot of folks describe Yggy as "gray." It's weird, and I can't really say why that makes sense, but it is a bit... gray sounding. But that's not a bad thing. It's got character, it does instruments really well and it can layer well especially when paired with a disc or recording that used Moffat's GAIN ADC system (early Mofi gold CDs).

    For me, it was a bit polite, it lacked a little sizzle on dynamics I guess. I went the polar opposite way - a pro audio unit called a Dangerous Music Convert-2. That sumbitch can rock TF out. But it gets a bit tiring after a couple years, lol.

    Edit - also it's a DAC that has both SE and balanced outs. You have to use the balanced outs and do so in a truly balanced setup, to get the most from it. SE out is a compromise feature on it.
     
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  24. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Francisco

    I’m assuming that was not the analog 2 version which people say is way better ?
     
  25. MrEWhite

    MrEWhite Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    You know, I kind of take this back. After using it for a bit with PCM, I came to the conclusion it sounded wonderful. Then, I went to listen to some DSD and found it sounded pretty darn good, but then all hell broke lose when I went to listen to PCM audio again. A very noticeable hiss was in the background and only went away when I restarted the DAC by flipping the power switch off and on. Could reproduce it on demand by switching to from PCM to DSD and back again. Tried my darnedest to fix it but couldn’t :(
     
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