My recent experience lowering the noise floor on my turntable has me wondering if Ivor T wasn’t

right about source first. Adding the Orea bronze feet to the Rega P6 is a game changing upgrade. Bass definition and top to bottom transparency increased so much it does not sound like the same system. My speakers completely disappeared. That being said, the dealer says that my front end is still the bottleneck. He recommends that I move to a phono stage in the 2k range before spending one dime downstream.

I can’t think of a pair of speakers that cost as much as the rest of my system combined that would have improved my system as much as the improvement to my front end. Better speakers could not bring back the loss of definition that degrading the front end would cause. The glare that disappeared with the improvement in the front end would just be highlighted. Same for all the other improvements that the better front end brought. Take them away, add better speakers and garbage in, garbage out becomes a reality.

I wonder if those folks that advocate spending most of the money on speakers have heard a well set up system with a first class front end?

 

I have the new JBL L100’s and I use a Rega P3 along with a Cambridge CNX as sources. There’s no way a set of isolation feet on my sources is going to make the improvement on my system that the JBL’s did.

 

Hey, goodness happens-- enjoy it! Build on it, if you're so inclined.

I'm dubious as regards formulae or rules of thumb, as there is an exception to every rule; and the laws of the universe always seem to send those exception to me!

 

At the end of the day an audio system is just that — a system, and unless we are talking a headphone based system then it also includes the room where the listening takes place. Everybody faces different challenges with getting things setup to their satisfaction. What might provide a good deal of improvement for one person might not bring much perceived improvement at all for the next guy.

I often think that people find the greatest advances in sound quality where they wish for them to exist. Some guys get more fired up about turntables than speakers and vice versa. Some people have an end game in mind while others will never stop changing out gear. There is no one single way to listening happiness. As long as you are happy while listening I would say that you are doing well.

 

Have you considered a rack designed to support audio equipment? I found that when I went from a custom built stand built from wood to a Symposium aluminum rack and there was a significant improvement in sound quality. The bass was less bloated so there was greater detail in the lower frequencies. The midrange and highs also benefited with added clarity. A well made component rack would be a life long improvement as any upgrades in electronics will benefit.

Although I am using Symposium Ultra platforms to support my speakers I am considering trying out IsoAcoustic products under my speakers. Perhaps you might try this as well. The reviews for their products have consistently been positive.

Room acoustics might be addressed with absorbers or diffusers. These products will help with any future changes in your audio system.

 

I have Gaia IIIs on my speakers. They are stupid good.

 

I have to try some Isoacoustics footers this year. Too many great user reports on this forum to ignore. It's not Ike they are very expensive and people are raving about what they can do.

 

The reviews are TOO good. I sat on the fence for awhile because nothing can be that good, and be that cheap. Except they are!

 

For the most part the answer to this question is: No. So prepare for the assaults by the "90% of you money should be in your speakers" crowd...

 

To me it's all about how well the components match what makes a system sound good to you. Everything is equally important in your setup, and I don't think you should take all those rules of thumb on how much to spend on which component too seriously. Just buy what's well matched, sounds good to your ears and within your budget.

 

The "source first" logic is unquestionable: you can't polish a turd.

FWIW, after I put entry-level IsoPucks under my massive 301 plinth, I knew I was really hearing what I should be. The higher up ones must be even specialer.
DD

 

The dealer that I bought the Oreas from told me that the next bottleneck in my system is my phonostage. Its not like I am using a Mani or something. I have a Sutherland KC/Vibe, but he said I need a good stage in the 2k range before spending one cent downstream. Speakers in the shop that day that are better than mine. KEF Reference range, all of them. A new Dynaudio Evoke 30 and Evoke 50. Dynaudio Contour 20, 30, 60, and the KEF Blades.

Wonder how many of those 90 percent guys have anything like the upper KEF Reference or the Dynaudio Contour stuff. I wont bring up the Blades. Yet, I need to spend my money on my front end. The big rig in this shop was the best stereo I have ever heard, but he says it needs tweaking.

 

Depends on the weight range you need. Just how massive is the plinth and is it threaded for spikes or feet? If its say 35 lbs or so and threaded, the Gaia IIIs would be your best bet. Less or no threads, there are 3 different Orea models. You want to be at around 50-70 percent of the rated weight if you can. They will work at lower and higher levels, just not as efficiently. Just dont go over and try not to go much lower if you can. They do need loading to work.

The dealer swears that the Orea Bronze takes the P6 to the same if not a little better than the P8. I havent heard it personally, but he has the P3, P6, and P8 on the floor. No RP10, demo is sold and he is waiting on the P10 this fall. He hasnt tried them on the P8 yet, so they might take a jump too, and he said they dont work on the P3. Not sure why, but it has to do with the tuning of the Oreas vs. plinth makeup.

You are one of the few that actually picked up on what my post was actually about. It wasnt a post about the Gaias, it was about what a seriously upgraded front end brought to the system. There was a time when I thought old Ivan T was full of poo, but not anymore. He was dead right. Lose it at the source and its gone forever.

 

FWIW: I believe that your dealer is probably correct that getting a really great phono stage will likely result in the greatest improvement in your overall musical enjoyment.

 

That Sutherland is already a pretty damn good phono stage. I don't think you need to drop $2000 on a phono stage. Given the rest of your vinyl setup, you'd probably be just fine with the Sutherland Insight at $1400. At that point, you're moving into their dual-mono topology which I think is a big jump from the KC Vibe. If you do feel like you have to spend $2000 on a phono stage, you're not going to do much better than the Sutherland 20/20 at $2200. But at that point, I think your phono stage would be outclassing the rest of your source gear.

 

The problem with speakers is that spending more isn't necessarily 'better'. You can certainly get a bigger sound and wider frequency response from large cabinets but tall narrow baffles tend to kill the advantages. You are correct in saying that any speaker will sound better with a good front end and the phono stage is usually critical. Also except for highly efficient designs built for SE valve amps, speakers will sound better with a very powerful amp due to control and headroom available. I'm surprised some feet are a game changer but obviously you were suffering feedback. Rega make a dedicated wall shelf which I'm told is the best solution for their decks. Why not go for something less sensitive to feedback when upgrading either high mass, sprung or some other form of damping.

 

Ivor T was certainly correct in the sense of "Garbage in, Garbage out", but Peter Walker was also correct in the sense that a high-end source played through a ghetto-blaster is still going to sound like a ghetto-blaster. As with most things a sensible compromise is usually the best solution.

 

I think he was somewhat right, but mostly wrong. It doesn´t matter where one makes improvements, if it is the first component or the last. But it is likely that the variation in SQ is larger if we combine TT, tonearm and cartridge; than at other components. If we also take into account TT stand and phonostage, the possible variations are huge.

 

I disagree with source first. If the room-speakers are sorted then most half-decent front ends can sound good.

I sometimes play a particular mid resolution mp3 file to friends which sounds just like hi-res on first listen & in isolation. It always seems to amaze people that it can sound like this.

 

bottleneck in what way (according to the dealer) ? your Vibe is excellent in terms of transparency, sound stage and low noise. I have found that upgrading the stage to higher price points does not improve those areas that much but does improve dynamics and impact - making the sound more muscular and "stronger" for lack of a better word. Upgrade if you find your vinyl sounding on the weaker side of things.
IMHO your biggest bottleneck is the Ania cartridge.

 

The isolation feets isolate your TT so it had to get some Micro vibrations to your TT, otherwise you should not been hearing such of a big improvement.

What is generating the vibrations then. Yes you are right. The vibrations is coming from your speakers. That may go down to the floor then up your rack to your TT.

So you may have a floor that are singing at a given base frequency.

Why not trying to put isolation feets adopted for the mass of the speakers (no spikes) under your speakers. So you isolate the source of the vibrations. You may get a great results if you do that. Just try it. You will be silenceing the floor among others.

Congrats for the refinement in sound you got so far!

 

Gaia IIIS went on the speakers first.

 

You heard a bad one. Mine is terrific.

 

When you improve any part of your system it should be audible, but that doesn't mean that that part of your system is the most significant part.

 

Yes, and to know what is most significant is difficult.