Nagaoka MP-200, Technics SL-1210GR, & Tonearm Height

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by matrix-6, Nov 11, 2019.

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  1. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    So.... I've had my SL-1210GR set to 0 for tonearm height for months with the Nagaoka MP-200. I just read that the MP-200 measures 18mm in height. The SL-1210GR manual recommends setting the tonearm height to 1 for 18mm carts. I set it to 1 and I swear records sound thinner to me. I prefer it set to 0 so put it back for now. Thoughts? Can I damage the record or stylus with it set to 0? Tracking is set to 2 grams which is the high range for the MP-200. There's way more punch with the GR set to 0.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  2. The Dragon

    The Dragon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, AL
    If you are hearing things get worse by adjusting according to the manual, the adjustment is probably slightly off. The manual has suggested settings based on a generalized set of measurements. What is really important is to measure the Vertical Tracking Angle (VTA). The diamond stylus should ride at approximately 92 degrees when measured from the plane of the record. Most of the time when the cartridge body is parallel to the platter horizontally, the VTA should be correct. Of course that assumes that the tracking force is set correctly and the cartridge cantilever and diamond are aligned correctly from the factory. That's a lot of assuming. There are always variances in production quality. I use a magnifying glass and a plexiglass VTA guage to visually gauge the VTA. Then, I make fine adjustments while listening to a test record or other familiar record. Vinyl Engine has more information as does Analog Planet.
     
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  3. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Ear never lies.
    Best method.
     
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  4. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes placebo does not exist.
     
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  5. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    You shouldnt be hearing much of a difference either way, the stylus is Elliptical and isnt picky about VTA.
    Does going from 0 to 1 raise the arm by 1 millimeter?

    What matters isnt the arm height anyway but the Stylus Rake Angle (SRA). No perfect way to set it so just go with what the manufacturer recommends and make minor adjustments from there if you think it helps.
     
  6. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Perhaps, leveling your cart does not get the stylus rake angle which delivers the best performance as your ears have suggested. Of course, maybe the sound could be further improved to your liking by adjusting to some less than 0 condition (tail low) at 0 VTA setting by shimming.
     
  7. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    It's common knowledge that raising the tonearm will give you less bass. Perhaps you just prefer how it sounds when tail down. I doubt you are risking damaging anything by leaving the tonearm at 0mm.

    In theory, when you raise the tonearm 1mm, the cartridge will rest a bit heavier on the record. Perhaps set VTF again, now that the height is at 1mm, to be safe.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  8. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The cartridge manufacturer usually has a recommendation. I would use that. If they don't provide it, I would use the TT manufacturer's recommend. Deviating from these recommendations by a small amount is probably going to hurt anything. Most stylus designs, even advanced shapes, were designed with a few degrees of tolerance in either direction.
     
  9. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    They would have to be, otherwise records would be unplayable.
     
  10. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    That must be it. I also had a hard time looking up the dimensions on the MP-200. Nagaoka doesn't seem to provide it in their specs or setup guide: https://www.turntableneedles.com/assets/images/productimages/nagaoka_MP_series.pdf I found it referenced a few places elsewhere online. One person measured it at 17mm though.

    As everyone recommends, I'll go with what sounds best. I do need to pick up a plexiglass VTA gauge at some point. Thanks everyone for comments and help!
     
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  11. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    I tried my Nagaoka MP-500 in my GR with both 0 and 1mm and it didn't seem to make much of an audible difference with the record I was playing. I'm using it at 1mm because I think I'm optimizing things that way and some records might sound better but I'm not doing much experiments. It made a very noticeable difference when I went to 4mm and up though, almost like a high precision tone control.
     
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  12. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Does going from 0 to 1 raise the tonearm by 1 millimeter?
     
  13. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    Yes. It can go up to 6mm in an infinite scale.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  14. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    That means the OP is changing the SRA by about 0.25 degrees. There is no way that has any meaningful change on a fat Elliptical like the MP-200.
     
  15. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    This is up to him to decide. He says it does.
     
  16. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Sure, depends on if he cares about what is actually true or not.
     
  17. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    When you think about it records vary in thickness plus warps all play their part
    The cantilever and generatot may be
    In a different position
     
  18. matrix-6

    matrix-6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    The difference is actually pretty obvious. I was shocked to be honest with you. My wife and kid noticed it as well and they honestly don't care. They think I'm a geek/goober for even looking into it.

    For what it's worth it might be my setup as well. I have Klipsch Heresey IIIs up against a brick mantel/wall, and an SW-311 sub set to 55Hz in the corner. The amp is a Yamaha A-S1100.

    BTW, if it doesn't matter, then why does the Technics manual even recommend it? Just curious. Take a look at page 20: https://www.technics.com/support/downloads/data/operating-instructions/SL-1200GR_TQBM0053_EB_eng.pdf
     
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  19. Drewan77

    Drewan77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK/USA
    Far be it for me to disparage the importance of 'correct' SRA but given the variations in vinyl thickness among most of our collections, this is something that has the potential for never ending anxiety.

    Find an 'average' setting that sounds right for you and if a particular LP grieves you then go ahead and increase or reduce VTA slightly, keeping in mind that the turntable is used for listening to music rather than using music for listening to the turntable.
     
    JigsawC5, recstar24, matrix-6 and 3 others like this.
  20. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    They give you an estimation for how it should work and it is more important for finer styli.
    If there is a difference its not because of the SRA.
    Do some ABX testing, it should be easy enough to have one in your family raise and lower the VTA a few times.
     
  21. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    A simple ABX test done at home won't prove anything. The very fact that you know you are taking part on a test may mess with your perceptions.

    I would trust better your first impression. You expected the turntable to sound better, since you were coming from a "wrong" VTA to a "right" set up. Placebo effect and confirmation bias would likely incline you to hear an improvement, and yet you did not, quite the contrary. This is more trustful than an ABX testing when you know you are testing your own perceptions, so you will be now, different than then, under some psychological pressure. You might pass the test or not and whatever the results it won't prove anything.

    Leon speaks from what he read on this forum and elsewhere. He never had a turntable able to adjust VTA on the fly, so he has no personal experience, but he already knows how VTA and SRA works from what he learned on his online research. If he does buy one, we can speculate that he will adjust 1mm of VTA with some elliptical stylus and hear no difference, because he unconsciously might just want to confirm what he already knows from his study, i.e., he might be under confirmation bias. This was not your case. As I infere from your OP, you didn't know what to expect sonic wise, so you had no bias that it should sound thinner.

    If it sounds better to you, then it's just fine. I doubt you would be damaging anything, as I said before. However, I would play with VTF too. No need to run a cartridge at the maximum VFT if it has been being used for months. You might be surprised with the results with 1mm and 1.8g for example. Or maybe not.
     
  22. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    It will prove that a difference is perceptible.
    And the argument that bias makes it useless is absurd and ironic since you accept the results from when he is changing the VTA himself, now thats bias.

    My experience has nothing to do with this.
    Still, you even tried it yourself and heard no difference so anecdote seems pointless to bring up either way.
     
  23. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    Not if perceptions are messed up by the pressure of the test itself, which might happen.

    I said more trustworthy, by comparison, not that it is perfect or perfectly valid.

    It's not "confirmation bias".

    I was offering a hypothetical example of confirmation bias.

    Yes, in my system, with my ears and brain, that day, with that record, I heard no difference. Curious, isn't it? This tells nothing about the experience of the OP, however. I was just giving him some perspective, not saying that he didn't hear what he said he did.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  24. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    You can make that critique after a test has been done.

    You would trust random anecdote over ABX testing?

    Neither is there any in a proper ABX test.
     
  25. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    What I trust doesn't matter to the OP. I just gave him my opinion, he is free to consider it in any way he wants to. I understand you disagree, and I'm OK with that.
     
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