Nagaoka MP-200 vs Ortofon 2m Black - fair comparison?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Nubben, Mar 26, 2017.

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  1. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Saw that too, interesting.

    Also this: soundadvicevinyl.com/2017/12/04/under-1000-moving-magnet-cartridge-shootout-11-cartridge-reviewed/

    I really like the MP200. Put one on a friend's table. Could happily live with it. Not heard a 2M Black though.
     
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  2. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    Digital copies for purchase, but not public. I'd have to dig it up on my devices at home to pull the quote about the 200 vs the Black specifically.
     
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  3. G B Kuipers

    G B Kuipers Forum Resident

    Location:
    Netherlands
    I would have to disagree with that magazine. Having used both cartridges extensively on a Pro-Ject 2Xperience table with an EAR 834p phono pre, I have to say the 2M Black (when properly set up) is clearly superior when it comes to resolving timbres, extracting spatial information, dealing with IGD and sibilance, and generally sounding very natural on whatever music you play with it. The only thing the Nag does better is dealing with damaged or worn records.
     
  4. Years ago I called Ortofon and the guy I spoke with scoffed at the SL1200 relative to High Fidelity. Which is kind of weird since they have a huge market using those turntables. He basically told me dj stuff is never HiFi. There maybe a better sounding table, but I cant see myself ever parting with my 1s and 2s.
     
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  5. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    That's totally fair with your experience. Nothing beats your own ears! I do think at a certain level equipment matching might matter more than X is better than Y. And there is also the factor of personal taste as well.

    Once I get home I'll see if I can add some of the specifics from the article to help give it context, not trying to sway you in anyway. Just sharing what I'd read and adding to the conversation.
     
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  6. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    One has to consider what's being compared - the technical intricacies, or the sound? If a Nagaoka 150 with an elliptical sounds better to someone's ears that a 2M Black with a shibata - why can't he compare them based on sound? This what we're all after, ultimately - is it not?
     
  7. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    For anyone that was wondering, here are the key points from the HiFi Choice article I mentioned. If it's not in quotes than I'm paraphrasing. They had 6 carts total in the test, but I'll just talk about the 2 mentioned in this thread.

    Value was one of the rating categories. That does help the MP-200 in this case as the reviewer rated it 5 stars for value when the 2M Black only received 4 stars. In the other 3 categories they are ranked the same.

    MP-200 quotes
    "The Nagaoka MP-200 is the cheapest model in the group, with low running costs and it should be easy to fit to most turntables. Most importantly, it never fails to balance detail, realism and sheer enjoyment in a way that means it makes a very worthy test winner."
    "there is a balance to the frequency response on show here that makes for a very satisfying listen."

    2M Black quotes
    "The Ortofon 2M Black is one of the more expensive models in the test, but you can see where the money has gone. Everything about its installation and operation is well thought out and logical to a fault and there are few situations it can’t be made to work well in. It also possesses one of the most accurate sonic presentations of any cartridge anywhere near its price. Only a slight lack of excitement and some ruthlessness with poorer pressings rob it of the top spot here, but this is a seriously accomplished design and comes a very close second."
    "The 2M Black makes much of its flat frequency response, and with good justification as it’s very much a defining characteristic that gives the most scrupulously accurate performance of the group."
    "Hollywood Nights is delivered with the precision of an atomic clock, but some of the simple joy of the piece can be lacking. Once again, though, the 2M Black finds nuances to Seger’s vocal performance that simply aren’t present with some rivals and instruments such as cymbals have a tightness and lack of splash to them that makes them sound more vivid and defined."

    So after reading these and only focusing on these two, it does sound like their is a bit of personal taste to factor in. It sounds like over the 2M Black will be more accurate. It will also be more expensive, and less lively (according to the reviewer). So if accuracy is your thing and you're working with really high quality pressings, it sounds like the 2M Black would be the way to go. If you have a budget factored in, and/or would like a more relaxed sound, it seems that MP-200 is the right choice. At least based on this article.

    Hope that helps anyone looking at these two!
     
  8. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Thanks for that. What were the others, out of interest? Wasn't one a Soundsmith? (Just skimmed it in the newsagents)
     
  9. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    Soundsmith, MoFi, Goldring and something else I believe. I'd share more, but I think since this article directly compares their top 2 it was pretty relevant. Too bad it's not online because I think it's a good read. Not just for the "what's best" factor, but also just getting an understanding for what each cart does best. I don't think any of them would be considered bad carts. Just about what works for what needs.
     
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  10. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I think the reasoning is having an Elliptical that has the same contact area as a Conical, which is roughly a third greater than a normal Elliptical while still having similar tracking performance.
    Sounds like a good compromise to me, only 1 or 2 records I have produce some clear IGD with it.
     
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  11. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Definetaly agree that it seems to handle Jazz exceptionally well. The imaging is a step up from the previous in the line.
     
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  12. rasputin1

    rasputin1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    New York
    4011021, it doesn’t make sense to put a $700 cartridge on a $600 turntable. If you think your Black sounds good now, wait till you try it on something like a Linn or high end Thorens.
     
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  13. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Please tell me where you can buy a 1800$ table for 600$. Also, ever heard of diminishing returns?
     
  14. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    He was probably referring to my PLX-1000.
     
  15. rasputin1

    rasputin1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    New York
    Fair enough. Just trying to make a point. We all have our diminishing points of return. Our hobby is subjective, that is why it is so much fun. Now, getting back to the OP: I have both cartridges (along with the 2M Blue) and I much prefer the 2M Black over the Nagaoka. On my system at least, using a fully updated Linn setup, the MP200, while mostly smooth and civilized, does not approach the dynamics, dimension and resolution of the Ortofon. The Nagaoka is more competitive with the 2M Blue in these respects. Of course YMMV but it does show the relative qualities of these cartridges with the TT and tone arm not being limiting factors. Some folks will argue in favor of the Nagaoka’s warmer (not necessarily more accurate) tonal balance and superior cantilever. It’s fruitless to debate the merits of the former since it is subjective and system dependent, but I will point out that while boron is a superior cantilever material in and of itself, not all boron cantilevers are made the same. The good ones are laser trimmed (some finished in gold) and have the diamond set into the cantilever. The one on the MP200 appears to be glued (using lots of it) onto the cantilever, not through it. It is not surprising that a few users have reported their tips falling off. My experience with the 200 is that it is very musical but can sound grainy compared to the Ortofons along with an unnatural upper midrange projection that I don’t hear from the Ortofons or even it’s little brother MP150 which I’ve also auditioned on my rig.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
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  16. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Id think the MP-110 is rather the one to equal the Blue generally speaking.
     
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  17. rasputin1

    rasputin1 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    New York
    My experience with the MP110 is mixed. I like its bounce and overall tonal balance but in my system it doesn’t sound as fast or detailed as MP150 or 2M Blue. Its mid treble peak (see TNT review of the MP11 which is basically the same cartridge) gives the impression of detail but really isn’t very extended by phono cartridge standards, dropping some 8-9dB by the time it reaches 20khz. When I listen to the 110, I hear a lot of missing information. The MP150 also rolls off abundantly (according to Miller Audio Lab), but because it has a better (nude) tip there is no peaking in the treble and it sounds clearer and more natural. The 2M Blue has an even higher quality nude tip of rectangular cross-section (the kind rarely seen on entry level cartridges) and sounds like it - it is flat to beyond 20khz (Lowbeats says it has one of the flattest curves ever measured). I agree with that assessment - the Blue sounds utterly neutral on my system, much more so than the Nagaoka MP110. I don’t think any cartridge with a bonded tip can compete with one that comes with a nude tip. The only $200 cartridge I’ve heard that’s competitive with the Blue is the Audio Technica AT7V. It too has a nude tip.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  18. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium


    Mp110 vs. 2M blue
     
  19. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA

    From the vid, it's a toss-up to my ears.... each cart does some things better than the other. But, the 2M Blue is twice the price of the Naga 110.

    A similarly-priced Naga mp150 beats the 2M Blue pretty handily. Just sayin'.
    .
    .
     
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  20. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Im speaking generally, watch the video above to see how close they are on that system. So in my eyes they are equal, even though one is nude and one is not. One is also 200 something $ and the other only 120$.
     
  21. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Was just about to link this video. Couldnt tell a big difference at all other than the 2M Blue being slightly more sharp.
     
  22. SNDVSN

    SNDVSN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Listened with Audio Technica headphones and the difference was easy to spot, much brighter presentation with the Blue.
     
  23. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I wouldnt say MUCH brighter, and it depends a little on what track is playing. The ABX test for example I didnt feel confident in picking out which was the Blue.
     
  24. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    True! When I heard this I knew what I was missing out on the mp110, so I know what my next upgrade will be :D. The top end is just more detailed on the mp150.

     
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  25. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Then when they stylus switching time comes you can try the 200 as they share the same body.
     
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