Nagaoka MP-200 vs Ortofon 2m Black - fair comparison?

Blue is indeed brighter compared to mp110, but from that second video, I get the impression that the difference between 110 and 150 is bigger then between 110 and 2M blue. The mp110 sounds more 'veiled' compared to the mp150 vs. comparison with 2M blue imho.

 

I can't really hear much difference between the MP110/MP150, maybe slightly more more treble on the 150 which can be a help or a hindrance depending on the record. That INXS track is really well produced and it's one of those songs that would sound good with any cart, it's not really a good test and there's too much time between change over. I'm currently using the MP110 and I have a love/hate relationship with it, on some records it sounds fantastic and on others it doesn't. When things get busy and there's lots of cymbals it struggles, I actually turned it off last night because I really did not like what I was hearing. I'm not sure what my next cart will be, MP150/200 or 2M Blue are possibilities, not really a fan of the AT bright sound.

 

It is indeed a pretty startling difference between the mp150 and mp110... though I still like the mp110 better than any cart in its price class ($115 or so).

Also, I’m not a fan of carts that seem bright for the sake of being bright, like some ATs are. If you have good resolution, then you don’t need any big artifical treble hump or bump to give your cart the (phony) appearance of seeming to be detailed. Rather, it just is detailed.


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Just watched this one:



I was set on the Bronze or Black, but now am leaning towards the MP-200 or MP-300.

 

And... This kills it for me. Is this even possible?

via The Nagaoka MP-200 phonograph cartridge

"The stylus replacement interval varies depending on the using conditions. But for general use at home, the reference time is between 150-200 hours in which the stylus begin to wear and the tone quality deteriorates. Recommend replacing the stylus as aerly as possible to enjoy clear tone for a long time and not to damage the disc grooves. "​

200 hours? The Ortofons run 1000 - 2000 hours. To put it in perspective. 15 minutes a side on an LP. So two LPs an hour, so 400 LPs max? Sucks. I really like the sound of it...

 

This has come up before... it's widely regarded as a bit of a translation error, the Naga carts do not wear freakishly faster than any others.

Rather, it seems to be an admission by Naga that carts are at their tip-top 100% best up to that point, and will start to slowly degrade a bit after that - which would seem to be true of any cart, really.

But you should't have to replace a Naga any faster than any other cart.
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I know this is old, but since the thread is still going I thought I would comment about Ortofon not recommending anything over the 2m Blue.

I have a PLX-1000 and both the 2M Bronze and a 2M Blue. The Blue has a compliance of 20 and the Bronze is 22. The blue was much easier to get the tracking/skating right. There wasn't much wiggle room with the Blue, but I was able to get everything working well using the HiFI test record. The Bronze was much harder. With the Bronze I had to add the extra weight to the tone arm and this allowed me to just get the tracking/skating right. There was almost no wiggle room with the Bronze, and without the extra weight I could not get the tracking/skating as good as the Blue. All this makes me think the PLX-1000 tonearm may have a little higher effective mass than 12g, this puts the Blue right on the edge of ideal and the Bronze just exceeding it. Also the Bronze it far more sensitive to VTA and the PLX-1000 headshell does not have a VTA adjustment (other than just twisting the headshell one way or the other while you tighten it in). I ended up purchasing a LP Gear Zupreme 10G headshell. Between the headshell, a spacer on the cartridge and the extra weight on the tonearm, I was able to get the Bronze working really well. The Blue on the other hand didn't require anything beyond the spacer. (Without the spacers the arm height was all the way down below zero, and still not quite right without adding the slipmat) So the spacer added slightly to the mass of the headshell and cartridge .53g but that didn't seem to make much difference in the tracking. The Bronze mounted in the Zupreme weighed in at 18.12g while the Blue mounted in the Pioneer was 17.93g; almost no difference.

Anyway by my experience the Blue is a better match and is not effected by the lack of VTA adjustability, so maybe that is why Ortofon recommends the Red/Blue instead of the Bronze/Black.

Cartridge Resonance Evaluator - Vinyl Engine

 

@h46e55x, I believe you mean azimuth, the PLX1000 does have VTA adjustment.

 

This is completely wrong. The hours does not depends on what brand you use. Its all diamonds. The only factor that changes it is the profile and shape of it.
The standard is that any Elliptical diamond will produce 3% or so distortion on very HF grooves after 200 hours of use. Its the same for the Red and Blue too. The Bronze and Black which are Fine line and Shibata only lasts about 100 to 200 hours more than that before they distort the same as well.
But no one changes their styli after that amount of time, usually its about 1000 hours for lower profiles and 2000 hours for finer ones. Because you wont hear the distortion very easily until a lot later, its just where the manufacturer considers the cartridge "Worn".

 

Youre mostly right, the stylus always degrades, after every play. Its just so incredibly insignificant, so they set a standard for when its been worn, which is about 200 hours. I dont know if its even an audible change, maybe if you only listen to 15KHZ tones and above all day long.

 

I assume you mean 'used' as 'worn' would be pretty awfull after 200h ?!

 

No I thought about it and it really would be worn. Because as a manufacturer I would call a cart used the moment its been put on a record.
The 200 hours threshold is supposed to be where you can detect actual degradation in the sound, at least with equipment, so I would say worn for that. How negatively you perceive the semantics is another thing.

 

Worn to me is 'ready to throw in the bin'. Surely there must be another english term for it?

 

Why should you believe what he says? He might like a different sound to you. Sound is a personal. I would do more research before you buy.

 

Worn is about the mildest synonym I could find. The rest imply more of a complete break down. Worn could imply, and is often used in record grading for examples, as a term for when the item is detectably used by an owner, which is what it is after 200 hours or so.

 

I never got this argument. Dont believe what people say, now look at what other people say to make your judgement. Or do you mean he should try it himself?

If the review is convincing with examples and explanations for what it sounds like then thats whats valuable, hes not just saying "The Nag sounds good, the end".

 

When it comes to the sound of a cartridge it is personal. I am not saying the video isn't thoroughly compared. It his ears doing the comparison. He prefers the one over the other. It doesn’t make it definitive.

 

True, but what I find valuable in a review is when it describes concepts that are easily applicable and comparable to other carts. And since he has tried pretty much all the relevant carts in the 100 to 300$ range I do give some credit to when he says that the imaging is more present, bass is deeper or shimmer is clearer on one cart over another. Then, knowing me, I can go from there and decide what aspects are most important to me. You wont ever find a cart that does everything perfect for everyone, especially at that price, but neither is it the case that only one cart is the one for me, you can often be happy with a number of different ones.

 

I like and subscribe to his channel but he’s the definition of a subjectivist. There’s no measurements in those reviews at all, so his scores are really based on his subjective opinion only. And no matter what price tier he always seems to pick Nagaoka as the winner, so he clearly gravitates to their sonic signature. Of course subjective opinions are worth seeking out, but I don’t find it to be any more definitive than say a Pitchfork score. It’s just a helpful starting point from an informed enthusiast.

 

Absolutely it should only be a starting point, I have seen his other videos too. He does navigate to the Nagaoka probably because he likes their sound and his swayed by that. I saw a video where he totally trashed the AT440mlb which I have used and it's a superb cartridge.

 

One person’s neutral is another’s cold and calculating. And warm to some can be muddy to others....

One more thing per the AT vs the Nag, his reviews don’t get into specifics about tracking. This is not only a priority for listeners, but also for most cart manufacturers as you go up their line. I appreciate the videos but they are almost 100% focused on tonal balance on audiophile Records vs performance of the cart on everyday records.

 

I agree totally. Yeah, sure I have audiophile records but I have hundreds of used 60's 70's 80's records too and I want to know how it can deal with those too.

 

It's not just his ears, though. It's your own as well, since Ian backs up what he states via sonic examples.

For instance, Ian will say something like, "The bass is deeper and tighter on cartridge A than on cartridge B". Then on the video review, he immediately plays cart A and cart B back-to-back on a passage or multiple passages with deep bass, and you get to hear that, yes, indeed, the bass is deeper and tighter on cart A.

This is pretty much what he does with all the statements he makes, too. You get to hear it for yourself.

And yeah, it's a YouTube vid, but at least both carts are handicapped equally by whatever limitations there are in the mic'ing, compression, etc. I do find that, if I crank the vid to max HD and use my nice set of Ultimate Ears earphones, I almost always hear what he hears. Though I may occasionally have a different characterization of what he hears than he does.

For instance, yes, the Ortofon Bronze is 'dull and veiled' compared to the best carts in its price class (as Ian says), but its 'dull and veiled' in a somewhat pleasing way, if that makes sense. Still would take other carts over it. But I understand how the Bronze sounds good to some ppl, while Ian comes across as simply dismissive. Which may be an aspect of his reviews that causes some ppl to not like them... he's harsh at times. And maybe about equipment that you like and/or have purchased.

But OTOH, don't audio reviews need a bit of 'harsh'? After all, the major mags and most review sites have seemingly never met a component they didn't like. Ian's blunt honesty comes across as a breath of fresh air by comparison, IMO.

The other thing ppl get on Ian about is that he doesn't really bother with measurements. I am okay with this, as I don't much care about measurements either, and can get them elsewhere if need be. I have simply run into too many good-sounding (to my ears) pieces of audio equipment that didn't measure well (and vice-versa) to spend much mental bandwidth on them, with a few exceptions.

Ian's reviewing style is what it is. You don't have to like it. But there are plenty of other options, even among just YT audiophile vid reviewers.
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I guess I'm confusing/mixing up the terms worn vs. worn out .
As for Ian's reviews, I can't stand to watch those for any longer than 5 secs. I'm very sceptical of 'audiophiles' who constantly trash something in praise of another. Sound is not a black&white thing.
I would look up cartridge comparisons on youtube, but preferably clips where no one is 'pushing' you to hear anything. Better to find out for yourself what you like.

 

Your correct. I meant azimuth. I even mentioned adjusting the height.
It was late.