Nagaoka MP-500

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by drmoss_ca, Jul 15, 2022.

  1. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    I've written before about my love for the London/Decca moving iron cartridges. For the last eleven years I've been very content with the Reference. But surely the stylus must be horribly worn by now? I asked Brian Smith at Presence Audio about that, and he felt if I'm fastidious about record cleaning I might be surprised at how long the stylus will last. Nonetheless, he will happily get it looked at and serviced by John Wright if I want. I think I owe it to the cartridge to keep it in fine order.
    In the course of this, I discovered that I was unaware that Grado pickups are actually a form of moving iron, and that there is a very similar configuration available in Nagaoka pickups. Now I have a character flaw: I am prone to latching onto eccentric and underdog designs that promise the world and rarely deliver. But if Mr Grado Sr invented the MC and then moved on to MI, maybe I should follow my inclinations this time!
    So thinking I'll send off the London while JW is still around to service them, I ordered up a Nagaoka MP-500 and a Grado Lineage Statement 3. Together, they cost less than the Reference, which is how I justified getting both. No doubt I wasn't thinking clearly with vision dimmed by cartridge-lust.
    I put the MP-500 into service today, all fnibbers and thungs since it's been so long since I changed a pickup! But a read through of the manual for the SME-V reminded me of how logical and easy it is to set up, and all went well. Tracking set to 1.7g, phono amp to 47kΩ and low gain as the cartridge puts out 3mV.
    First disk is Stefan Grosman and John Renbourn first self-titled collaboration. First impressions are that surface noise is much less (Deccas are known to increase it, and that may be why I'm such a fanatic for cleaning LPs!), but, surprisingly the music is a whole lot clearer and more detailed. And since the cartridge is new I ought not to draw many more conclusions as it will change as it gets run-in. If there's less surface noise and more detail, I must be playing somewhere different in the groove, and that makes me think the poor old Reference must have been slowly wearing away without me noticing, like the mythical frog in the pot. Right now, a new and unsettled pickup is winning over one that cost five times as much, and that was in ten years ago money. Can't be a fair fight, and no doubt I'll be slipping the Reference back in to compare when it comes back.

    But this isn't going to be a two-way fight - the Grado gets here on Monday, and I'll have to decide whether to leave the MP-500 in place until it's had its 20-50 hour run-in and shows its best (probably the wise and restrained thing to do), or whether to swap in the Grado (which is supposed to also need 50 hours to show its metal, but that would be impatient and what my son used to call a 'baadthingadoo'.) It does strike me as strange that the MP-500 is said to take 50 hours to 'really sing' and yet the stylus needs replacing every 200 hours?! 200? It's diamond, not sapphire. Was there a typo in translation and it should be 2000? Hate to think how many hours I have on the Reference!
     
  2. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Quite possibly you have discovered
    A damn fine cartridge.
    Possibly outperforms the Decca

    Money does not always guarantee
    Audio nirvana.
    It should but I always go with my
    Own findings.
    No doubt the Decca is now past its best
    Due to stylus wear. It's just been gradual since it creeps up on you.
    I have had my Benz Glyder retipped 3 times.
    In every case its far far better with a new tip!
    So it may well be, that the Decca once
    Serviced will once again put a smile on your face.
    I am fascinated.
    Will follow this thread.
    Good luck!
     
  3. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    No doubt the MP-500 is a serious cartridge. It is close to $1K.
     
    bluesky likes this.
  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Not that long ago it was a $500 cartridge.
     
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  5. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    These days it is just north of $1kCDN. And after a day of continuous play, I'd say worth every penny.
     
  6. ThorensSme

    ThorensSme Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spokane
    I'm currently using an MP-200. After extended listening with a lot of cartridges from vintage MM (Shure V15v/Jico), current MM (Ortofon 2M all series), low-medium dollar LOMC (Ortofon Quintet Bronze, AT ART 9XI, others....) high dollar LOMC (currently have Koetsu RSP and EMT JSD 6, and listen to a friends Lyra Etna quite frequently), I actually prefer the Nagaoka to them all. Very smooth, detailed, confident and dynamic sounding cartridge, sort of a mix between the Shure/Koetsu qualities. I have no qualms with the current pricing of the MP 200 based on my experience with the value and performance, compared to many other cartridges. This is not to say that higher dollar cartridges are not worth the money, but to me, I do not listen to 'audiophile approved' only music and I do not want a microscope. I want a cartridge that gets me close to the recording, as good or bad as it may be, but still gives me the music and the enjoyment. The Nagaoka delivers on that. As you go up in $$$$ cost of analog playback in particular it gets more fussy and demanding to fully get where you might want it to be sound wise, and can cost a lot more than you think to 'solve' issues that may be related to setup and system matching. Also, as you go up in $$$$ your expectations tend to rise along with it.

    People get hung up on what something used to cost, etc, but it's an unrealistic basis for a decision. It's good to know, but not really an arbiter. You have to compare it to what else you can get for that same money, and also what your preferences are.

    Jury is still out for me on how long the stylus lasts, but my understanding is that the 250 hr mark is where the stylus starts to depart from the specified distortion parameters, and not when you need to replace the stylus. I think many people expect 2000hrs out of a cartridge, I don't think that is realistic, and I keep records very clean (on an ultrasonic.) I am expecting/hoping this stylus to last me around 800hrs, and if it does I would be satisfied with that for the cost of replacement styli over its lifetime.
     
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  7. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    No tracking problems noted during the day. Anti-skate is set to match the 1.7g VTF, and the damping trough is full of gooey old silicon (does anyone ever dig it out and replace with fresh?)

    800 hours, perhaps, if lucky? That would be less than a year for me, given I now have both nothing better to do than listen, and even if I had, I'm on isolation after a transplant, and anyway, what's better than listening to music? But a new stylus is $489USD on Amazon - which seems excessive. Maybe less than the postage plus service costs for the London Reference in the UK, or sending the Grado in for the same in NYC, but still, it seems a lot. Screw it, I'm not likely to live long enough to regret any of it!
     
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  8. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    The MP-500 outputs 3mv, no SUT required.
     
  9. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    I know. But when I bought the QC-24 I specified no phono input (so the one labelled phono is just a line level input), as I was also buying the dedicated 24p phono amp which takes care of input loading, gain and RIAA curves. I was trusting poor old Tim deP to get all that right - and I feel he did.
     
  10. Davey

    Davey NP: Hania Rani/Dobrawa Czocher ~ Inner Symphonies

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    You shouldn't really need the damping fluid with the Nagaoka, it's not very high compliance, but without knowing what viscosity you are using, or what it may be now, who knows. Most people use too much fluid, and use too high viscosity, so the tonearm is over damped and it can hurt the sound quality.

    If it was mine, I'd remove the fluid that's in there now and give it a serious listen, check how the tonearm feels and lands on the record, then try some lower viscosity oil. I think SME provides 60k as low viscosity and 100k for high viscosity. I'd recommend trying 10k instead, that's about where I wound up on my arm with my somewhat higher compliance OC9XML cartridge and heavier tonearm, I'm using a blend of 2k and some 50k to fine tune it, so probably a little under 10k now, give or take, just enough to firm up the bass and keep the main arm-cartridge resonance damped a little...

    Below is about $8 for a 2oz bottle at the hobby store, may be able to get a smaller one for less, but the main use is for RC model car differentials ...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
    drmoss_ca likes this.
  11. mkane

    mkane Strictly Analog

    Location:
    Auburn CA
    Try it dry. Nice cartridge choices.

    Music soothes the soul. Enjoy.
     
    drmoss_ca likes this.
  12. zombiemodernist

    zombiemodernist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeastern USA
    200 hours is a conservative estimate but I also think you probably ran your last cart for too long if it was in service for 11 years. In general with the information available to us these days and with my subjective listening I wouldn’t take any stylus over 800hrs max, the lesser profiles even less.
     
    Leonthepro, drmoss_ca and patient_ot like this.
  13. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Typo… and perhaps a persistent one. No cartridge maker could stay in business while demanding/recommending stylus replacements every 200 hours. I’ve installed and set up a lot of Nagaoka cartridges - there are a couple of MP-500 carts of my acquaintance that are running strong and beautifully with ~2500+ hours. Something similar goes for an MP-300 I know of at over ~1600 hours. LP care - cleanliness - stylus care, stylus inspection, correct vertical tracking force, accurate alignment from the beginning, and playing scratch-free LPs will help a stylus run perfectly for a long, long time.

    The Grado Statement 3 is a wonderful cartridge, and based on what I’ve heard after careful installation I think it’s a significant class higher than the MP-500 in just about every metric. I’m not generally a fan of Grado’ wood-body cartridges, but the current Statement 3 and Timbre Master 3 are at their respective price points real standouts. Terrific cartridges - well made, musical, euphonic, and nearly transparent to the groove.

    Your Decca is an amazing cartridge. The only reason I never recommend them is that I absolutely hate installing and setting them up. Unique cartridges with a distinctive and enjoyable sound. You’re developing a great collection of cartridges.
     
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  14. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    Very impressive performance by the Nagaoka. :agree:

    .
     
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  15. adhoc

    adhoc Gentlemen Prefer Stereo

  16. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    The Grado turned up today—two days earlier than expected. Now I shall have to steel myself to sticking with the MP-500 until it has at least twenty hours on it. Played eight disks yesterday, but that's only six hours. It's a bit awkward in the dog days of July to have all those 17 tubes lit up when it's 30ºC. I allow myself one hour of air conditioning in the hottest part of the day, but that's noisy enough from the heat exchange inverter that no listening can be done, except with headphones. I don't mind headphones at all, but SWMBO seems to feel it's unfriendly of me. I have a pair of Quad 306 amps I could slip in instead of the II/forties, but I'm so enjoying the Sophia Electric KT88s! Actually, it won't be hard at all to keep the MP-500 in; it sounds really remarkably nice already. But I'm sure it will go into the cartridge cupboard when I get curious enough about the Grado in a few days.
    The London Reference is boxed up with $50.08CDN of postage on it, which should take it to see John Wright in Shropshire.

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. ThorensSme

    ThorensSme Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spokane
    It certainly is. Just to reiterate, there are things more expensive cartridges do 'better', but they aren't always worth it. Subjective preferences play a part here too.
     
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  18. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    Ten hours on it so far, and it's developing a warmer, fuller bass. Eight more disks cleaned for today, so if I get to play them all I'll be up to 16 hours. I'm getting impatient to hear the Grado....
     
    Cyclone Ranger likes this.
  19. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    The line contact diamond should last about 500 - 1000 hours in optimal circumstances.
    Anything over that is mathematically and physically impossible to perform as it should.
    Their Eliptical styli do only last 200 - 300 hours though yes, might have just mistakenly carried that over from those.
    It doesnt take 50, 20 or probably even 2 hours for it to break in either. The only thing that will is your ears.
     
    Phil Thien likes this.
  20. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    Thank you for the information. While I can't say for certain that it was the cartridge and not my ears, there was a major change between ten and fifteen hours, where what had been extremely clear mid and upper ranges were joined by a rich bass.

    Wish me luck - I have screwdrivers, balance and protractor out, and the Grado is about to go on.
     
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  21. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Been a fan of my Mp500 for a long time. I will say that the other one I've had lately that seems to be closest to the Mp500 presentation would be the VM760SLC. Not saying that these are the best I've had - that would go to the Blackbird - but the MP500 lives on the table that I use the most and has far more hours on it than any other I now own.
    The last time I had a cartridge that I liked as well over a long time was probably my V15mkIII. I can't even say that they were similar as it was decades ago, but that was probably the last time I was satisfied for as long.
     
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  22. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    Here we go:

    [​IMG]
     
  23. ThorensSme

    ThorensSme Forum Resident

    Location:
    Spokane
    Definitely interested in your thoughts comparing to the Nagaoka. Grado is one cartridge brand I haven’t really heard.
     
  24. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    This Grado already has ten hours on it (it was sent to Oracle for demo purposes and I got a nice discount for that). Now it has twelve. So far it is not as involving or as dynamic as the MP-500. But they say it takes 50 hours to show what it can do, so we'll see what the next fortnight brings. If it's not grabbing me hard by then I'll likely go back to the London Decca Jubilee that seduced me into buying the Reference.
     
    punkmusick likes this.
  25. drmoss_ca

    drmoss_ca Vinyl Cleaning Fiend Thread Starter

    Location:
    NS, Canada
    Since I can't change the thread title, I'll start a new one for the Grado.
     
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