Nat King Cole - The Christmas Song (1960) SACD from Audio Fidelity

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by rxcory, Aug 24, 2015.

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  1. Clark V Kauffman

    Clark V Kauffman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Des Moines, Iowa
    Well, I certainly hope that your assumption -- that they wouldn't use Norberg's old mastering -- is accurate, but the fact that the product description has so many other, seemingly accurate details (such as the release date, label, reissue producer, etc.) is troubling, as is the fact that there's no mention of this being a multi-channel (3 track) SACD, which would have definitely pointed to a brand new mix/mastering for this SACD.

    Still, you could be right.

    So while I have the noose already tightened around my neck, and I am balanced precariously on this old wooden chair as I type on my laptop, I will wait for confirmation before I jump and end it all. :)
     
  2. coleman

    coleman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    No need to jump. Norberg has his foot on the edge of the seat and is ready to push. :)

    Unless czeskleba has some inside information, my money is on a straight reissue.
     
  3. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Geeze guys, calm down.
    Has Audio Fidelity ever reissued an album without doing a new mastering? Have they ever issued a CD not mastered by Steve or Kevin Gray?

    As I said, Bob Norberg is retired so he wouldn't be doing a new mastering, and I don't think Bob Benedict is involved in any way with Audio Fidelity.

    Doing some further searching, I see the item description exactly matches that of this earlier release. Obviously, CD Universe just cut and pasted the description from there. Aside from the release date and label, I wouldn't trust anything on there. No Norberg, no Natalie. Get down from the chair.

    Oh, noticed another thing. The item description says "The Christmas Song" is included twice, once with and once without Natalie. Based on the artwork for the new Audio Fidelity, that clearly isn't the case, which further supports the conclusion that the description wasn't written for this particular CD.
     
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  4. Clark V Kauffman

    Clark V Kauffman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Des Moines, Iowa
    Lord. This is not a slam against Norberg, who I am sure has done a lot of fine work over the years, but the problems with all of the past masterings of this album (including the original LP) are so well documented, and so obvious to even the casual listener, that I'd have thought no audiophile label worth its salt would touch some 1990s-era digital master and would insist on working from the original analog multi-tracks before committing to an SACD release of this landmark album... I fear that an SACD version of a Norberg master will be the equivalent of a high-resolution color photo of a black-and-white photo that was Xeroxed and then run through a fax machine: It will simply replicate all of the serious flaws in the 'original' source material.
     
  5. Clark V Kauffman

    Clark V Kauffman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Des Moines, Iowa
    Well, remember, just because Norberg is retired, his previous work remains in print. His retirement hasn't had any effect on Capitol's decision to keep re-using his previous masterings of this album -- most recently just last year with that lousy vinyl-LP reissue on the Capitol label.

    That said, I do hope you are correct. As you point out, some elements of the product description -- not all -- don't correlate with what we have come to expect from Audio Fidelity and don't correlate with the SACD artwork.

    I have been a bit worried about this particular disc because even with the release date six weeks away, we still have no official word from Steve or from AF....
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2015
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  6. rxcory

    rxcory proud jazz band/marching band parent Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Since when? Many of my DCC, AF and APO titles mastered by Steve are from Capitol.
     
  7. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    The whole point of audiophile reissues is to remaster. There's never been an audiophile reissue ever that simply cloned an existing release without remastering it. What would be the point? Why would Capitol license the reissue of a title that is identical to a disc they have in print? That would make no sense.

    Besides which, Norberg's old mastering would not be high-res. Using it on an SACD would mean they would be taking a PCM mastering and upsampling it to DSD. There's no way in hell they'd do that. They'd sooner cancel the release.
     
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  8. Clark V Kauffman

    Clark V Kauffman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Des Moines, Iowa
    True enough. Which is why I said an SACD of a 90s'era Norberg master would be like a "a high-resolution color photo of a black-and-white photo that was Xeroxed and then run through a fax machine." If we take the product description at face value, that's precisely what we are getting -- hence my concern. As I said, I hope you are right and that the product description is correct in some aspects and completely wrong in others.

    If I am pessimistic, it's only because (1) this album has gone through countless "remasterings" before, always with disappointing results, and (2) our host and AF have, for whatever reason, been very quiet (so far) about this highly anticipated release.

    So, I hope for the best, but fear for the worst.
     
  9. Blair G.

    Blair G. Senior Member

    Location:
    Delta, BC, Canada
    If I'm not mistaken Capitol/EMI is now owned by Universal and KG usually does the Universal titles
     
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  10. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    My point is that I see no reason why we should give any credence to that product description. It seems clearly to be cut and pasted from an older listing.

    The lack of confirmation might be cause for concern that the release has been delayed or cancelled. But there's no reason to worry about it being a Nordberg mastering with an electronic duet on it. That is not going to happen.
     
  11. yookmook

    yookmook Forum Resident

    i like version on 2046 wong ka wei the movie.
     
  12. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    Well, that would suck if it was cancelled. Who knows though.
     
  13. Batears52

    Batears52 Senior Member

    Location:
    Near Baltimore, MD
    I agree with Jason. No way this is the old Bob Norberg remastering....that would make less than zero sense.

    We all have our own ideas of what would make the "perfect" release of this material. We've read many of them on this thread, and they're all great ideas.

    But let's be realistic. How many times have Audio Fidelity (or Mobile Fidelity) released a reissue of a classic album that did not contain exactly the same tracks that were on the original vinyl release? Not many. (Steve tried to get the single version of "Country Road" added as a bonus track on Sweet Baby James. Nope - couldn't be done. Certainly, Elektra's updated Best Of Bread is a more complete & definitive collection than the original BOB album.) This is not what these two labels do - at least not very often. To expect otherwise makes for nice conversation, but not much else.

    So, understanding this, seeing the AF artwork for The Christmas Song, containing the 14 tracks as released in 1963, is not surprising at all. (Yes, at a minimum I would have liked to see "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" in here, and I seriously doubt that most people would even realize it was not part of the 1963 release - but it's not a deal-breaker by any stretch.)

    My advice: Hold on to or find a copy of Cole, Christmas & Kids for the 1953 version of "The Christmas Song" - along with his other non-LP Christmas singles. Yes, it was remastered by Bob Norberg - but it was compiled, researched & produced by Ron Furmanek - and I think it sounds just fine.

    As for the best sounding version of the 1946 original - I'll take your opinions.


    Oh, and here's a suggestion for Universal/Capitol/et al: Pull all 4 of Nat's recordings of "The Christmas Song" from the vaults. Have them remastered by someone who really knows & respects these recordings - someone who won't remaster them for "radio" or iTunes ... or crush the sonics to death. Release them online as a single, 4-song item in a decent lossless format.....and you can have my $20 right now ($5 for each version). You should do this next year - on the 70th Anniversary of the original release. Make a splash...the evolution of an all-time Christmas "anthem". Consider donating the profits to a worthy charity.
     
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  14. jtaylor

    jtaylor Senior Member

    Location:
    RVA
    Mastered by Kevin Gray.
     
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  15. TSmithPage

    TSmithPage Ex Post Facto Member

    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    That's as expected. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed, because I have a substantial collection of SH-mastered NKC recordings, and this may be my favorite of the whole batch. I'm sure KG will do a fine job, and we can always compare SH's version of "The Christmas Song" from the Nat King Cole Story with what we get here, but it seems like a missed opportunity to me.
     
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  16. Roland S.

    Roland S. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rostock, Germany
    So this SACD comes from a HD-file because Universal/Capitol allows not to work from master/tapes? Correct? If i remember correctly Steve is not working from digital sources?
     
  17. mmars982

    mmars982 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Didn't Steve H & Kevin Gray work together on the Nat King Cole Story?
     
  18. rxcory

    rxcory proud jazz band/marching band parent Thread Starter

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    That's it for me as well. Kevin's one of my favorite mastering engineers and I have more awesome-sounding albums mastered by him than I can count. But for consistency's sake I was hoping this would be another SH affair, maybe even with remixes. Still, I have no doubts this will become the definitive digital version for this album.
     
  19. fantgolf

    fantgolf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rochester, MN
    Yes, and I think we are in for a real treat.
     
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  20. TSmithPage

    TSmithPage Ex Post Facto Member

    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Yeah, they've worked together for years. There are plenty of threads here that compare and contrast their mastering styles, but one thing we shouldn't have to worry about is a highly compressed early bleeding affair.
     
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  21. bubba-ho-tep

    bubba-ho-tep Resident Ne'er-Do-Well

    Location:
    San Tan Valley, AZ
    Kevin Gray is certainly no slouch. I'm am looking forward to this release immensely.
     
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  22. Batears52

    Batears52 Senior Member

    Location:
    Near Baltimore, MD
    I'm absolutely getting this!! I can't imagine anyone who has posted in this thread not doing the same. Sure we all had our ideal release of this material, but at the end of the day, this should be the go-to version for most folks.
     
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  23. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    You know that the Speakers's Corner Elvis Is Back reissue uses SH's mastering from DCC, right?
     
  24. Clark V Kauffman

    Clark V Kauffman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Des Moines, Iowa
    I canceled my pre-orders once I realized this disc wasn't sourced from the multi-track session tapes but from the previously existing stereo master.

    I have no doubt that Kevin's mastering will represent something of an improvement over all previous releases; I'm just uncertain as to how much better it will be.

    I already have at least eight or nine versions of this album on LP, CD and 7-inch stereo discs, and god knows there is plenty of room for improvement on all of them. My concern is that over the past 50 years there never has been a really good-sounding release of this album derived from the stereo master. I don't know why that is, but given the problems with all of these previous versions, I am concerned the issue is attributable to the limitations of the stereo master. (This is almost certainly the case with Nat's "Where Did Everyone Go?" album. That album never sounded good until Steve went back to the original session tapes to bring us the newly mixed SACD version. All previous incarnations were very muffled. Something went seriously wrong when that particular stereo master was created, and the problem wasn't corrected for half a century.)

    It doesn't help that the track line-up of the new Christmas Song SACD omits "God Rest Ye Merry Gentleman." Yeah, I realize the SACD track line-up faithfully adheres to the line-up of the LP once it was reconfigured to swap that song out for "The Christmas Song," but it's still disappointing that a track originally recorded and released as part of these Christmas sessions is missing in action from the new SACD.

    Now, my sincere hope is that the initial reviews on the SACD will be positive and will prove that my concerns about the stereo master are unfounded. If that's the case, I'll be hurrying to order my own copy ... or two ... or three.

    Of course, even then I will grouse that this timeless album didn't get the deluxe 3-channel/stereo/mono treatment that the initial round of Nat Cole SACDs got. Gotta have something to complain about... :)
     
  25. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I did not. The exception proves the rule, I guess. At any rate, what I was really trying to say was that an audiophile label would never simply issue a clone of an existing, in-print, regular, non-audiophile release. Speaker's Corner re-issuing an out-of-print audiophile mastering is very different than Audio Fidelity taking the existing, in-print Norberg mastering of this Cole album and reissuing it on a new audiophile CD, which is what Clark was suggesting might be happening here. An audiophile label would never issue a CD that's identical to the existing regular-label product.
     
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