Need advice about digitizing some old Hi8 video tapes

I plan to digitize about 15 Hi8 tapes (mostly travel videos) that I shot in the 90’s. I want to do it before my tapes (or I!) self-destruct, and before the pool of suitable players dries up even more than it already has.

At first I was going to have a local video place do it. Here in Burbank there are several pro facilities. I visited 3 of them but for whatever reason, none were able to play my tapes properly — each place just got a screenful of noise. (I believe that my camcorder was probably out of alignment or just not working properly back then, and the tapes are out of spec.)

Then I remembered that a friend that I did sound studio installs with for many years has a high end player (Sony EVO-9500A) so I borrowed it. Lo and behold, it plays my tapes back very nicely.

Today I borrowed a simple, inexpensive A-V interface from another friend, and set everything up with my Mac and a new Samsung TV. But a new problem surfaced. When I patch the Sony EVO-9500A into my TV, the picture looks good. But going through the interface I get noise bars at the bottom of the picture, and occasional random flashes and artifacts in the main part of the picture.

I suspect that the simple inexpensive interface is the problem, but have no way of being sure.

I don’t know what to do but I feel like I’m close, and I want to get this done. Aside from the general question of “What should I do?”, I'm wondering:

Should I invest in a better interface, and if so, what model? And should I try to get hold of a time base corrector??? Might that help?

Another question. Once everything is digitized, I want to edit everything and hopefully do some picture enhancement. I think some of the scenes would look better if could make some color and brightness adjustments. I plan to use iMovie for editing but I have no experience with it. Can I make my desired picture adjustments in iMovie? If not, should I look for some box and do that in hardware, or use another app, or…?

I’ve worked in pro audio all my life and can solve almost any audio problem, but have little experience with video stuff like this. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

Hi8 is still an analog format, so it's very possible there's enough instability, that will cause any capture card to momentarily break up. You'll most likely need to find a company that has a time-base corrector (TBC) who can play back on a 9500 -- which is a good machine -- and stabilize the picture and then capture it to a decent file format. The companies I'd recommend in LA are not cheap, but you could try:

DC Video
3071 N. Lima Street
Burbank, CA 91504
(818) 563-1073
DC Video

Secret Headquarters, Inc.
Attn.: Greg Huson
5767 W. Adams Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90016
(323) 677-2092
www.SecretHQ.com

It may actually be cheaper for you to borrow (or rent) the 9500 from your friend, buy a used TBC off eBay, and get an inexpensive capture card like a Blackmagic Mini-Recorder or something like that. iMovie would be one choice for capture software, and it's up to you to decide whether you want to remaster it and tweak the images from there.

BTW, I did a Google search for "Hi8 digitizing" and about two dozen companies popped up, and I'm sure some of them are affordable and reasonable.

 

The best tool I found to transfer D8, Hi8 and 8mm tapes is the Sony DCR-TRV120E. It has a FireWire output and a built-in time base corrector. I have an older laptop with a FireWire input specifically for capture purposes. This camcorder can be bought very cheap on eBay.

 

Agreeing with this. Pretty sure I have the TRV350 model. Some of these Sony camera's can playback 8mm and Hi8, while some cannot playback 8mm. You need to research. I think I bought mine (to replace an older failed camera) on Ebay for around $100, came with all cables and carry bag.

 

I also have the TRV350 camera which I bought new many moons ago (still works well). It can play Hi8 and 8mm tapes with no issue as well as D8. It also has a built in TBC function as well plus has Firewire output to your PC which does the A/D conversion in the camera. There's other models that can do it also but unsure which ones. That would be your best bet if you want a simple solution for Hi8 tape capture.

Plus I also have the Sony Evo-9800A broadcast deck which plays all my Hi8 tapes just great. But since it doesn't have a built in TBC I would suggest incorporating one into your setup when dealing with analog sources. And if you find one on eBay make sure its a full frame TBC (avoid the ancient oversized VCR-based ones). As for TBC, I would try to find either the AVT-8710, or a Datavideo TBC-1000. Sadly these devices are getting harder to find so if you manage to find one definitely grab it. I have a ton of VHS and Hi8 tapes that I will be digitizing in the coming months so having the right stuff to do it with is paramount.

I would also try to capture in the highest quality possible. In my setup since I have the AJA Kona LHi card I've been capturing to DV50 which maintains the 4:2:2 color space.

 

Can you just transfer it yourself to VHS or DVDR through analog cables first ... and then get that turned into a more complicated digital file later?

 

I would always avoid any unnecessary analog generations. Playing a 8mm or Hi8 tape via a D8 into a computer via FireWire will be the first generation. There were a few DVD recorders that had FireWire inputs, but they were rare.

 

Generational loss....been a long time since reading/hearing that term...lol. Technically when the tape has been first recorded on (from the master or camcorder) its considered first generation. Copying that tape's material to other tapes from that point would be second generation, etc with quality getting worse each time.

For each tape you want to do only once. Transferring it to VHS is going quite backwards because the resolution for VHS is much lower compared to Hi8 which quality would be abysmal. Hi8 tapes themselves have the dropout weaknesses so just best to just transfer it to the PC once and do all the tweaks from there.

 

Oh, I assumed that these were just home movies or something like that, so overall quality wasn’t as much a concern as simply salvaging them.

 

I prefer to maintain the best possible quality no matter the material. If you have nobody else to transfer the material I can work out a nice deal. One additional advantage of avoiding analog connections is that we won't have any issues with shifting of color or tint or brightness or contrast - it's a digital transfer of what is on the tape.

 

Note there is an analog connection: there's an A/D converter in the circuit that hits the Firewire connection. The recording on the Hi8 tape is analog, so there's always a conversion to digital. Same thing if you play a Hi8 tape in a Digital 8 machine. You can debate how good/bad/ugly the A/D is, but I think the quality of most Hi8 tapes is going to be low enough that it almost doesn't matter.

 

This is very helpful, and thanks for all the replies.

It seems that the first decision is whether to keep trying to do this on my own, or look for a shop. Since the EVO-9500A (which Vidiot approves of) seems to work well and I can keep it for a while, I think I prefer to do the transfers myself. I'm going to look for a rental TBC, or maybe I'll buy one off ebay and then sell it after I'm done. I didn't know that some camcorders have built in TBC's and that's interesting, but since I had so much trouble playing my tapes on other decks, I'm afraid I might buy another player only to find that it can't track my out-of-spec tapes properly.

Seems like the A-V interface I'm using is probably just not good enough, so I'll look around for a better one, like the BlackMagic that Vidiot recommended.

Also, I've noticed that due to the mediocre mics on the original camcorder, audio on all my tapes has a low end bump at around 150-200 Hz. and some rolloff starting at about 4k. I'm pretty sure that an equalizer would improve the sound a lot, and that the same settings could be used for all my tapes, since they all sound about the same. I have several EQ's on hand, so that would be another advantage of doing it at home.

I definitely want to do this as a first generation transfer.

With my present setup, I noticed that when I digitize, the image I see on my computer screen has a little more top and bottom than what I see on my TV via the composite video out. In other words, the TV image is slightly cropped compared to the digitized image. The TV image looks better, because the computer image has noise at the very bottom of the image that is not part of what I see on the TV. Does this sound like a limitation of my cheap A-V interface, and do you think a better interface will produce an image that more closely resembles the framing I see through the composite connection, without the junk at the bottom? I hope so.

Also, I'm still wondering how I can make minor picture adjustments. In the past I've seen consumer video enhancement boxes with analog video in and out, that have controls for adjusting brightness, color, etc. Or can I do that in software in iMovie, or some other app? It seems like a little tweaking might make for a better looking picture and like the audio problem i mentioned above, it seems like all my tapes have similar issues (slightly washed out looking color, a little too dark, a little too much contrast in general).

Thanks again for all the replies.

 

A TBC is a must when doing analog transfers to help ensure a jitter free transfer and reduce problems with dropped frames and errors when transferring to the PC. And yes I would recommend doing it yourself if you are willing to put the time in it because only you will know how you want the end result to be.

This is one of those moments where having an audio mixer can help a bit with this. If you are planning to use the EVO-9500A deck you could run the audio to the mixer to do general adjustments then run its output to the capture device. In my setup this is how I have it for several decks I use like the JVC-BR525U, EVO-9800A, etc. Or if you choose you can just capture the entire tape raw and then do all your adjustments in software, with whichever software package you use. I use iZotope RX, but there are a lot of decent audio editors that you can use to help with that. I incorporate the Mackie 1604 VLZ4 mixer in my setup for analog stuff.

Its not the interface, this is called overscan. What you are seeing in regards to the extra material at the top and bottom of the screen is what you normally never see on the TV, since it hides that part of the picture. Its mostly head-switching noise and other factors. I've digitized a few tapes and get the same thing when viewing it on the computer screen (since the monitors are mostly progressive), but when viewed on either a broadcast monitor or regular TV screen it looks normal.

Also, if the 9500A deck you are borrowing has S-Video output, I would use that over composite to capture with. Composite is fine when previewing on a monitor but I would capture with S-Video to get the best quality possible from the tapes.

IMO, the consumer enhancement boxes suck and are of low quality. Some of the ones I have used in the past added noise to the picture with crappy results. Depending on what you plan to edit with, I would try doing it at the software level for adjustments. There are better quality external enhancement boxes called a Proc Amp that you can use to make adjustments to the picture before going to the capture card. It all depends on how involved you want to be with your project.

Best to your project!

 

AVTechMan said pretty much everything I would say. I capture into Edius via a Blackmagic Design Intensity Shuttle. I'm using a DPS time base corrector with proc amp controls on the front panel.

 

AVTechMan and Chris, thanks, that all makes sense.

I have a couple of small audio mixers but for I also have free access to some really nice pro model graphic EQ's, which would be even better, so if I do this at home, I'll use one of those.

Piecing this all together in my head, the only thing I'm still unsure of is what interface to use. Vidiot mentioned Blackmagic but the only current product I see that has analog inputs and Firewire out is the Ultrastudio Mini HD, which is $500 and seems to have a lot of capabilities and features that I'd probably never use.

You mentioned the AJA Kona LHi card. I have a older Mac Pro and I think it would be compatible. But I'd also need a separate breakout box, is that right? And does it have its own software, and would I need to use that software? (I see a few used cards on ebay, but they don't include software.)

Ideally, I'd love to find some new or used standalone box for $250 or less that will do what I want and do it well, with a minimum of complications. Not sure if that's realistic, though.

Maybe I should get hold of a TBC first and try it with the cheapie interface I already have, which is a Datavideo DAC-100. Since the overscan I see on the computer with it is not a problem but a normal thing, as you explained, maybe my interface will be ok once I add a TBC to the system? Or is an inexpensive box like this basically a piece of junk that will just compromise my project:



Whatever interface I use, I will get hold of a TBC and use it for the transfers. And yes, my deck has S-VHS and I've been using that.

Most of these tapes were made in the mid 90’s when I was traveling the original Burma Road from Kunming, China to Lashio, Burma. Normally, Westerners are not allowed to visit the Burma side of that region at all, and going there involved a lot of special papers and an official Burmese “minder” who accompanied me for several days. I passed through opium growing areas and also made a side trip to some remote villages in Burma where I encountered numerous “long neck” tribal women, most of whom had never met a Westerner before. So yes these are home movies in a way, but they include a lot of unusual scenes and have great personal meaning to me, so I want to do them justice.

Sorry to drag this on, and thanks again.

 

Here's what I use. You should be able to get it for $199 or less with the USB 3 interface:

Intensity | Blackmagic Design



Here's B&H's link:

Blackmagic DesignIntensity Shuttle for USB 3.0

Composite video, analog audio, S-Video, component video and HDMI in and out. You can also extract audio from the HDMI input.

Once you have a stabilized picture, using something like a Digital Processing Systems TBC-IV with S-Video in and out, Blackmagic has free software to capture video and audio and also do some color processing.

 

AJA's products do work with Mac (I don't have any Mac systems) and I believe the LHi will work with it. Just check the specs to ensure it will work for your system. You don't need the breakout box for it, I have one and hardly use it. The card should come with the breakout cable you connect to the card. As for the software, you can download that for free from AJA's website for that model.

Chris DeVoe's suggestion of using the Intensity Shuttle 3 is a good idea too, provided you have USB3 connectivity on your system.

Slightly OT, I think its cool you got to visit Burma in the 90's. I remember the fourth Rambo movie was based in that country, but showed some of the very harsh stuff that was going on there.

EDIT: Speaking of which, this is the Mini-Recorder that Vidiot was talking about from BM:

Blackmagic DesignUltraStudio Mini Recorder

It's $145 but you need an SDI or HDMI connection to use it (Same with the UltraStudio HD Mini which I do have). I know the 9500A doesn't have such a connection on the deck so the Intensity Shuttle or AJA may be your better bet.

 

Thanks. I like it because I can move it back and forth between PC and Mac, and pretty much any computer made in the last eight years will have a USB-3 interface, and it has support pretty much any video connection you going to run into this side of a SCART connector.

 

Two friends are loaning their A-V converters to me and I bought a TBC on ebay, that should arrive soon. Will post back after I've had a chance to try everything out and see what works best.

 

If these options don't pan out, an earlier mentioned option of borrowing a compatible VTR and renting a TBC makes the most sense. I use AJA FS-1 and FS-2 frame syncs at work, and find them to be a quite effective "Swiss Army knife" for all kinds of conversions. I'm sure these are rentable locally in LA at either Bexel or VER.
Good luck.

 

Honestly, the prices on standard definition time base correctors has fallen through the floor. You can find perfectly nice ones for 60 bucks on eBay.

 

What's the best software/codec/format to utilize? I have the Sony Digital 8 camera to Fire-wire on a 2008 iMac (Leopard OS)/iMovie set-up. I copied a few tapes over that play fine on that set-up, but I couldn't get them to play on a more modern Mac hardware/software. I basically want to archive all this video to a HD, and perhaps make a few compilations to edit out all the boring bits. THANKS!!

 

If utilizing a Mac, QuickTime will work effortlessly. As for the files not playing on a more recent Mac, have you downloaded VLC?
It’s free and very versatile. About the only file format that I’ve seen it not handle would be a RED (R3D) file.

 

If you choose the right resolution specification, this will not happen. I suggestion you do some research and choose the right pixel resolution that will work for your source tapes.

Hi8 as far as I know should always be 720x480, and that should capture everything. The TV may scale depending on what kind of image pixel size/frame rate it expects to see and how it's adjusted. Modern flat screens (LCD and OLED) should not cut off any pixels if it's set up correctly.