Need some advice on Ortofon MC20 Super MKII

I understand that probably Salsa is technically a better cart than 2M based on their LOMC vs MM constructions, but see I wanted to go over to a new cart along with a better stylus shape. In the end of course it looks like I had bad luck both times I tried to grab an older Ortofon MC cart, since they always had generic bonded elliptical (as you could see on my photos) and I didn't want to go backwards on that route and sellers always said that they have original stylis. If the Salsa had the Special Line Contact per specs, of course I'd left that one and put it on the TT. Since I had a technically better MC20 ready for a retip, I didn't want to spend much in order to upgrade and that Salsa was okay in terms of price.

I'm currently very happy with the Bronze on my 2M Red and I'm very patient about MC20 at the luthier's place and hopefully he will find a way to do what I want - of course I'll write back with a review
Thanks for your comment Uglyversal, I'm glad someone else found interest in my thread, because it started to looke like some crazy rant to me as I was the only one writing something

 

Your comments made me look again and here is what Ortofon says:

The 2M Series' engines, coils and magnets configurations are not identical: Red and Blue are identical, so are the Bronze and Black and so are the true mono variants 2M Mono and 2M 78. Likewise, 2M series styli are interchangeable within the below combinations:
- 2M Red, 2M Blue and 2M Silver
- 2M Bronze and 2M Black
- 2M Mono and 2M 78

I have been tempted to place my Blue on my Black body just to see what can be heard....or not heard.

 

I read all of that Slick The main point here is that ANY stylus is physically interchangeable between ANY of the 2M bodies. As far as internals go, I doubt they use something different, because based on various sources and Ortofon description only the silver plated copper is different - that was the only consistent part about the difference. Would be great if indeed the internals were different, but that would lead to a bigger differences in sound and measurements in my opinion. And that's not commonly stated actually, so that's why I and some other enthusiasts stand to believe that a lot of that "difference" about 2M is marketing gimmick.

Again, here's the comparison video I mentioned - the same Bronze stylus is being used on 2M Red and 2M Bronze bodies.

Would be nice to hear your response on that matter
As for my own experience - the only thing I noticed on those various samples and tests is that Bronze/Black body gives a little bit more sparkle to the treble region, but that change is so subtle I can't justify buying a whole cart for say 440$ (quick googling led me to that price in US shops) when I had a chance to get only the Bronze stylus for ~140$

 

So, my story continues after some break

Here goes some unexpected turn. Luthier unfortunately told me that the cart was glued, so that the cover don't come off after unscrewing the bolt that holds the piece together. With my permission, he tried to put some force into that (he was worried to make some minor scratches to the surface, but to me it's negligible on the path to getting a great sounding cart with FG70) and... Today, to my happiness, he confirmed that the cart was glued indeed, but he successfully opened it. "...the work was done by an amateur, so there are some mistakes, but that's not fatal and can be improved with no worries. Original Ortofon coils and dampener are intact. I expect that the cantilever is made from aluminum, so we'll see how the change to OM40 will go..."
I started to worry after the first message from luthier, but currently I'm so happy that the cart was finally opened for the wonder works

 

Finally the retipper told me that the work was finished. New cantilever is 1,5 mm longer than the previous one, "but that's minor". Glad to see my retipped cart on the photos he provided Very happy the process went well. Now, time to take the final wait till he sends it back.

 

Looks like my story is coming to an end soon
Retipper successfully send my cart back, so I can't wait to finally set it up and fully enjoy MC sound with a proper (i.e. closer to original specs) stylus. Luthier also revealed that "magnetic drives" were misaligned because of the previous non-professional retip and he corrected that, hence he first told me that a minor mistake can be corrected besides changing the cantilever. I suppose he meant that either poleshoe or the magnet was misaligned, but now everything is proper and my cart is on the way finally
I'll report back on my experience and how basically 2M Red with Bronze stylus sounds in comparison to a freshly retipped and serviced MC20 Super MKII with Stylus 40.
Once again, I remember how poor the sound of 2M Blue was after even non-retipped MC20, so now I hope the sound difference won't be as drastic after Bronze.

 

And now....
We've made it to the finish line



I received the cart yesterday. Yes, there are a couple of small dents-scars on the outside of the cart, but I'm not that worried about them since the Stylus 40 with it's FG70 (vdH-like) profile now properly sits and tracks the grooves.
It's been somewhat long time between trying the MC20SII after 2M Blue and viceversa... Also I didn't have much time in the evening to check all the things I wanted in terms of sound and trackability, but so far the sound of a serviced and retipped cart was impressive. After about 2,5 months of using 2M Red+Bronze the sound of MC was different indeed. The overall delivery to me was much more airy and less punchy then 2M, but the accuracy of sounds was unbelievable. I remember back when I first tried balanced armature IEMs after dynamic phones it was very similar experience. Like you now hear a presentation of sounds from instruments and samples (depends on music genre) that are making the music, rather than melodies so to say. Both ways you end up with music of course, but how that music is build up is different. Overall I'd say I hear something similar to 2M Black you hear in comparison videos on YT - very fast attacks, crystal clear voices and cymbals, LOTS of details, and sounds coming from "black background", so again I was quite impressed.
I'll think about the loading and MC phonos though, because I think while it sounds great maybe I can do something to bring back a bit of bass attack, but so far it works okay to me on 35 kOhms setting with some gain (my SA9900 has Phono 2 with two knobs for Impedance and Gain settings) and Shure SUT. At least I didn't hear sibilance on The Crow OST and Gorillaz s/t which I used as my first LPs for this retipped beauty. I always thought that Crow has less bass in comparison to Gorillaz and MC20 showed that just like 2M, but the bass was not overbearing on the latter album, but still very "electronic" and fitting.

I think I'll report back when I'll get some time to dig deeper into problematic LPs with compression and less deadwax area in order to see how FG70 handles it.
Btw, I remember people report about increased surface noise and/or accentuated ticks and pops of advanced line contact stylus shapes, but FG70 didn't let down at all - fade outs were "pitch black", ticks and pops were only noticeable between songs from time to time (small dust particles for the most part) and while I of course turned the volume up, unwanted sounds were very quiet in comparison to music.

 

Great to hear you have a stylus profile that should deliver great results. I’m awaiting an MC20 landing, hopefully with original stylus. Right now I’m enjoying a some Audio Technica shibata MM carts. An AT15sa



and a VM750SH

 

Yeah, I'm happy the cart is now restored and has advanced profile
Nice A-Ts!

P.S. unfortunately it was pita to emded the photo from Google Drive and looks like the link was temporary, so here it is:

 

Well, during this week I've once again digged deep into compatibility of phono and my LOMC cart...

Basically, as I see it, in a best scenario I need a 1:28 SUT, impedance of 10-60 Ohms and 28,97 db gain from SUT or at least 60 dB gain (64 recommenced) from a MC phono pre amp to get nice results.
Now I don't know for sure what kind of value of SUT I currently have, but I assumed it is 1:15,6 because of 20-49K transformers that were used by the builder.
Of course it means that I currently don't have proper values, but my SA-9900 still can get +12db on Phono 2 and add some kick with just the volume knob, and I saw someone on the net mentioned that it is okay if the amp doesn't introduce much noise as you turn up the volume, so you can get into the needed gain zone.
Currently I've settled on 50 KOhm setting, which with the help of SUT, acts like 205,46 Ohm based on my calculations. After a week of listening and making adjustments (and I was very lucky to setup the cart with a protractor pretty fast only to correct my alignment after 3 days because of overhang) yesterday I finally heard proper bass response. I've seen at least two reviews where people claimed that Ortofon MC indeed need some time to "burn-in" and Ortofon themselves recommend 10 hour period in order to settle all the mechanical things inside, so even if I was skeptical, it feels that way.

As I've mentioned in the comment above, I felt the bass was on the lighter side for sure at first, but somehow yesterday it felt like bass response gained its reign back when needed and when there was an emphasis on the recording. Finally I heard great balance between bass and very accurate mid and high response. I still think if I need to try something like Pro-Ject S2 Phono to amplify MC20's signal properly and if it will be beneficial in my setup.

 

Well, for my birthday I decided to get Rothwell Headspace II as a great alternative to SUTs for using with MM phono. We'll see how it turn out, but so far I feel the sound on my MC20 changed for the better with the current SUT. On the records that feature plenty of bass, I hear it. And how good to feel that FG70 reduces sibilant vocals (just checked Getaway Car by Audioslave, which is very sibilant on vocals by nature).

 

Headspace II will soon be in my town based on tracking, so I can't wait to hear how the sound will be improved with it's proper gain and impedance settings
Did a little shutout yesterday using RATM - Battle of Los Angeles (Japan CD vs MOV LP): MC20 gives far more headroom and treble details in the music. CD sounds clogged, muffled and compressed, while bearing just a little more bass impact, yet all the bass details and overall mastering is showcased by MC20 as well. Plus tracking on the last song is no slouch - I still remember how I noticed significant quality loss with "original" bonded crap when I first recieved the cart.

 

Headspace II received
I started out with 55 Ohms and 27 dB gain (max setting). So far, Pearl Jam - Ten side B (remastered, original mix) played very atmospheric and detailed. Finally I feel that the bass is properly played back (I previously felt that some of its body is missing so to say) and high frequencies along with some mid-high became a lot more coherent and balanced, so I don't feel like something goes to the front. Using Shure SUT I always felt that vocals, cymbals and snare drum takes the front, leaving other parts behind a little bit. Really like how details from the music are filling the room now, making a more enjoyable experience.
Probably that means that my quest now is over and MC20 Super (both MKs) can be used safely on Pro-Ject Esprit turntables, bearing in mind that you need a heavier tonearm weight and proper MC-capable amplification. In my case, right gain and ">10 Ohms" really do the trick, so "not accurate" SUT might your sound back.

P.S. I also relistened H-blocks - Time to Move LP and CD yesterday to see if I still have some quality reduction (IGD) at the end of sides - nope, FG70 truly performs well now and seems like I did pretty well with the setup of the cartridge in the first place after getting it retipped.