Needledrops: Ortofon 2M Blue & Nagaoka MP-110

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by punkmusick, Feb 24, 2018.

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  1. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    The Nagaoka is more extended both on top and bottom. However, on a better arm I think I would prefer the 2M Blue's more subjectively neutral rendition. It's amazing how different turntable+arms combination sound. I have a 2M Bronze (among other carts) on my Rega RP3 table and it generally sounds much more open and relaxed than in your combination, even if I put a Blue stylus on it. The Nagaoka for me probably would create a sound I would describe as too "romanticised", having a sound signature than sweetens up everything—this is not how I want my records to sound. Yours reminds me of the sound of my old Technics table that I had before the Rega.
     
  2. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brazil
    Nice comment, thanks.
    Do you think this difference you are sensing could be due to the difference between direct and belt drive?
    Not sure if you get a realistic result using the Blue stylus in the Bronze cartridge, Ortofon says they’re not interchangeable. I’m considering a Bronze myself for a future upgrade, to use in the same arm (I don’t have a new turntable in my wishlist), but my plan is to buy the whole cartridge/stylus combo.
     
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  3. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    I'm not the specialist here, but I don't think the drive itself would make that big a difference. The drive influences, above all, the speed, the wow and the flutter and makes sure no extraneous motor noises creep into the recording. The arm, on the other hand, actually vibrates along with the cartridge and stylus and makes sure the most minute vibrations are carried along. At least this is how I figure it works.

    My first upgrade was from a Technics direct drive to a Rega RP1, and the improvement was already apparent using the same carts. I can hear the slight sound congestion in your samples in the run-in area before the songs already. On my system, listening on headphones, even the groove noise sounds more "open", if you will.

    A Blue stylus on a Bronze/Black body is actually an upgrade. It will theoretically sound better than the standard Blue due to the better body. Physically, they are interchangeable. But you are right, it's not actually a realistic result, since in this combo it probably sounds better. :)

    There is a limit to what your table can reproduce, I think a Bronze would be overkill with that.
     
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  4. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brazil
    Not sure about that. There are nice needledrops with the Bronze and the Black out there and some interesting reviews on this combo in this forum and elsewhere. I’m afraid I’ll have to see it for myself.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  5. crispi

    crispi Vinyl Archaeologist

    Location:
    Berlin
    Of course. And you can always upgrade the table in the future, should you come across a good deal.
     
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  6. Carraway

    Carraway Well-Known Member

    Location:
    NE Ohio
    I'll update. I'm curious as well. I haven't liked the "genuine" stylus for the AT110E I bought a few months ago as well as the one it replaced, however. And the cartridge is around 27 years old.
     
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  7. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    There may be several other things that differ. Cartridges and stylii are individual units and may have slight differences despite being the same model. Also, arm/cartridge resonance may affect the overall sound. Low resonant frequency may sound more "punchy" due to the interaction with stylus bending and warp frequencies (kind of similar to wow) while higher resonant frequencies may sound more dry and "correct", but I've not seen any systematic investigation in the matter.
     
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  8. Carraway

    Carraway Well-Known Member

    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Installed the MP-110 a bit ago, after listening to a side of a dynamic but not favorite album to make sure nothing was awry, I'm doing a bit of close listening now. My initial, highly analytic response is, "The bass! Holy crap, the bass! Was I missing it that much?" So far compared to the AT-110E I'm hearing more detail, far more bass extension and depth, and I think the highs are at least as good. Imaging is good so far, too.

    Edit: As for installation, it went pretty well. Nagaoka even includes a very small screwdriver. There was only one moment when threading and fumbling a bit with one of the nuts that I thought, "Is digital so bad?"
     
  9. CCrider92

    CCrider92 Senior Member

    Location:
    Cape Cod, MA
    Somewhere on this forum several years ago I declared that the MP110 found the bass that was lurking somewhere in my system! Glad to hear that you found yours!
     
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  10. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA
    That distortion is on the recording. I've got numerous copies of this album on CD & LP that all have that same distortion on track one.

    I visited a HiFi shop in Seattle that didn't let the employees play "So What" for equipment demonstrations because of this!
     
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  11. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    No kidding! Good to know.
    I've got this track on an old 86 Jazz Sampler US DADC CD but haven't gotten around to listening to it yet :)
    Edit:Yep! :laugh:
     
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  12. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Hehe, I feel ya on the installation, it took me several hours as a first time.

    This is what I experienced most from my switch to Nagaoka as well. The bass is much better than on the Rega Carbon cart. Another thing which is the main reason I bought it is the tracking. I have some fairly sibilant and challenging records that would run terribly on the Carbon. With the Nag its near perfect.
     
  13. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    I may have to give this cart a shot :cheers:
     
  14. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    For the money it cant be beat, at least where I live.
     
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  15. Carraway

    Carraway Well-Known Member

    Location:
    NE Ohio
    So far it does seem to track very dynamic albums--like the Black Lion Thelonious Monk London Sessions--better than the AT. At least the installation didn't take several hours. I moved the turntable to a larger workbench with very good lighting before starting. I also replaced the belt at the same time, as it's been a while.
     
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  16. Johnny Wong

    Johnny Wong Ya der hey.

    Location:
    Wauwatosa, WI USA
    Thanks for your efforts! I'm looking to buy the Nag very soon. I really like this...
     
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  17. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brazil
    Nice to know, thank you. Well, it actually ain't nice to know the original recording is distorted, but I thought my record was flawed.
     
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  18. marcob1963

    marcob1963 Forum Resident

    The Blue and easily. So it should be considering the differences in price.

    The EQ is far more natural, everything is more defined and a far better sound stage.

    The MP 110 sounds good for a more reasonably priced cart, but there is no comparison.
     
  19. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    I looked at the spectrum in Audacity and it appears that the Ortofon has a low frequency resonance of around 9 Hz, which is reasonable given its compliance around 25.

    [​IMG]

    The Nagaoka appears to be much lower at around 5.5 Hz. So I am wondering what the compliance is of that cartridge?

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brazil
    I don't know how to read these spectrums. What do they mean @Thomas_A ?
     
  21. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Does the lower resonance mean lower jitter and better tracking or?
     
  22. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Generally a low resonance means that the warp-noise is higher, i.e. the stylus bends more due to riding the imperfections in the vinyl surface. Warp frequencies are mainly between 2-6 Hz. The low f peak of the Ortofon is around 9 Hz i.e. just above the warp region, and at -41 dB, while the Nag is at 5.5 Hz nd -35 dB. Ideally you would like to have you resonance >one octave above warp frequencies and one octave below the music signal, for example between. 10-15 Hz. I think the Nag is suprisingly low in this case and wonder what the true compliance figures are. I also know that the MP11 tested at TNT audio also had lower frequencies than given by spec.

    Nagaoka MP11 phono cartridge - [English]

    Except for frequency response differences, the vastly different resonance frequencies seen above *may* be related to some of the sonic differences between the Ortofon and the Nag.
     
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  23. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer Thread Starter

    Location:
    Brazil
    I need classes...
     
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  24. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Doesnt that mean that dirt and such would be more prominent on the Nag? Yet people tend to say that the Nag is good at surpressing dirt pops.
     
  25. Paul H

    Paul H The fool on the hill

    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    It's interesting that you've done this comparison. I started with a 2M Blue and found it too shrill on my ProJect table, so I took the plunge and upgraded to the 2M Black. Even then, I found the highs too forward and the bass to recessed for my tastes. As it happened I was idly looking on eBay for Nag carts and someone was offering an MP-500 for half the As New price. Too good an offer to let go, so I took the plunge.

    In comparison with the 2M Black, the highs are smoother and the bass just a little more present. It made all the difference to my record collection, which mainly comprises 80s releases. Some of the excessive top end of those releases was nicely tamed.

    What I'd forgotten in all of this is that I used to have a MP-110 cart on my previous table and really liked it. Obviously, I'm drawn to the more relaxed sound of the Nags, although I do miss not having some of the extra detail the Black draws out. Just wish it wasn't so in your face.
     
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