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Neil Antin's Aqueous Cleaning of LPs- 2nd Edition

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Bill Hart, Mar 2, 2021.

  1. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Forum Resident

    Location:
    Gone
    I assume by the name and Ph this is a citrus based cleaner. I use this stuff for general cleaning (20:1) and it leaves things 'squeaky' clean. Have not used on lp's, but may try, 50:1 with DW. Then rinse 100% DW.
    On an old lp. Just for the heck of it.



    [​IMG]
     
  2. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    ZEP is not a citric acid cleaner. What little the MSDS shows direct_link.jsp (zepinc.com) this is an alkaline pH degreaser with oil of citrus - also known as a terpene solvent. I would recommend against using the ZEP product to clean records. Alconox Citranox is completely different.
     
    Ingenieur likes this.
  3. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Hello. I am excited to find version 2 of PRECISION AQUEOUS CLEANING OF: VINYL RECORDS.
    Is there an interest in typo observations, I have found one ?
    Thank you much.
     
  4. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Of course - I do know of a few and if there is a 3rd Ed all will corrected and of course new ones added :laugh:
     
    Ripblade likes this.
  5. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Only one? You didn't look hard enough! Lol!
     
    pacvr likes this.
  6. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    OK, thanks. I will finish the entire document first. I've ordered all the materials and can't wait to get started.
     
  7. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Mr. Pacvr,
    May I ask if all of your 'Update' are available via an advanced search at forums.stevehoffman.tv ?
    I was hoping to view them all since they are more recent than the Second Edition.
    Thank you.
     
  8. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    First - just call Neil.

    The only update for the manual cleaning procedure - Chapter V of the book is as I previously wrote in an earlier post of this thread, repeated as follows (note that DWV = Distilled White Vinegar):

    The reason for using a weak acid for cleaning is addressed on page 2 of this thread - "FWIW - Some new info:"

    Otherwise on this site, I have contributed a lot supporting people with vacuum-RCM and ultrasonic cleaning processes. And if you search you will find that info, but most is consistent with what is in the book.

    Good Luck,
    Neil
     
  9. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    I have been using this combination plus ultrasonics for 5 weeks, on older and newer vinyl, for experimental purposes. I have to say, this combination really works well. Was I able to save everything? No. There are some LPs in my collection that are beyond repair, or at least to my liking. The combination of cleaners still worked, but the LPs were too noisy. There’s only so much one can do with poorly pressed records.

    I used Citranox on newer LPs that were pressed at some of the more notorious plants: GZ, Rainbo, MPO. Again, I got very satisfying results. I was able to significantly lower the noise floor on my 2010 RSD copy of All Things Must Pass by George Harrison, which was pressed at Rainbo.

    I’ve found it to help with Motown pressed LPs. While not perfect, the Citranox goes a long way in getting rid of the extraneous noise.

    Thank you Neil
     
    pacvr likes this.
  10. dachada

    dachada Senior Member

    Location:
    FL
    I have also used the Citranox this weekend on a few japanese albums that were noisy after various deep cleaning with RCM, ultrasonic etc . . For pre clean I am been using liquinox for years with other enzimatic cleaners but results were no so great. but after i tested with Liquinox/Citranox. this problematic Japanese LP are now much better. Now lets see what this combination can do with my noisy mid 70s UK-German vinyl collection
    Thanks Neil
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
    pacvr likes this.
  11. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    How about including Tergitol as well? Is that accessible to you?

    Using Citranox has made a big difference. The backgrounds are blacker sounding after a cleaning.
     
    dachada likes this.
  12. dachada

    dachada Senior Member

    Location:
    FL
    This is my routine now with the old noisy recods:
    1. Using a label protector a Manual cleaning with 1% Liquinox for 2 min using a cottom pad and then rinse with warm Tap water.
    2. Using a label protector a Manual cleaning with 1.5% Citranox for 3 to 5 min using a cottom pad and then rinse with warm Tap water
    3- Rinse with Destilled water + IPA 10% using a sprayer
    4- 80khz Ultrasonic cleaning with a mix of 1 gal of distilled water at 35C +100ml IPA 91%+ 2ml Hepastat 256 + 2ml Tergtiol 15-S-9 for 8 minutes/ two complete rotation. i put new mix after i clean 6 records
    5-Double Vacum rinse with Destilled water + IPA 10%

    For clean records this is my routine:
    1-one Vacum rinse with Destilled water + IPA 10%+ Triton X100 + Hepastat 256
    2-oneVacum rinse with Destilled water + IPA 10%
     
  13. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Couple of suggestions:

    1. Cotton sheds lint. Better cleaning can be obtained by using the Amazon.com: Record Doctor Clean Sweep Brush : Electronics or similar type brush. This is the brush I use for my manual procedure in Chapter V - Vinyl Record Manual Cleaning Process (thevinylpress.com).

    2. You can ditch the 10% IPA if you want. But be advised that 10% IPA is classified as combustible and is very close to being flammable. Because of liability concerns I will not recommend over 2.5% IPA, so use at your own risk with the vacuum-RCM. Your UT formula with 100mL IPA is 2.6% which is safe and can have some benefit.

    3. 2ml HEPASTAT 256 per gallon (3785 ml) is not doing much. This is HEPASTAT 256: ~20% quats + 8% NID + 10% Na2SiO3/EDTA. When you mix 2-mL/3785-mL that is 1:1900 = 0.00053 which yields ~0.0106% (106 ppm) Quats + ~0.004% (40 ppm) NID (40 ppm) + 0.005% Na2SiO3/EDTA (50 ppm). People use HEPASTAT 256 for the Quats - cationic surfactants that IF left behind can act as an anti-static. But you leave behind other stuff such as Na2SiO3 which when dried is sand. The amount you are using is essentially doing nothing and your post rinse with DIW-IPA is going to strip any residue so there is no benefit.

    4. 2ml Tergtiol 15-S-9 per gallon (3785 mL) is 1:1900 = 0.00053 = 0.0530% = 530 ppm - this is a good concentration.

    5. For your vacuum-RCM, your item 1 is the Audiokarma/VinylEngine formula and the 'book' reviews that in Chapter VIII.13.2.

    Good Luck,
    Neil
     
    dachada likes this.
  14. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Thanks for the feedback. Your experience is similar to my own. The Citranox helps some (many) records, but some are beyond help.

    Take Care,
    Neil
     
    Tommyboy likes this.
  15. dachada

    dachada Senior Member

    Location:
    FL
    Hi Neil thanks for your recomendation. i use Cotton only for the pre-clean. My logic is this: I found easier and faster to clean the glass on camera lens with wet cotton/Cleaning Tissues than the cleaning brush. With the RCM i use a VPI brush
     
  16. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    A camera lens is a very smooth surface. The record grooves and side wall ridges represent a very irregular almost saw-tooth/screw-thread profile. The brush moves the fluid much better and the back-&-forth brushing/fluid motion develops the agitation necessary along with the chemistry to clean all sides of the ridges.

    Neil
     
  17. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Hi Neil.
    Regarding your 15 minute soak: Alconox Citranox at 1.5%... Since that is for the most serious condition,
    for a routine use of Citranox, should I be following the Liquinox step in Chapter V with Citranox at 1.5%, using the same Record Doctor Brush and cleaning methods as the Liquinox step ?
     
  18. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Yes - Following the Liquinox step in Chapter V (Steps 5 & 6) repeat Steps 5 & 6 with Citranox at 1.5%.
     
  19. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Hi Neil.
    I am very excited to get started, I've finished the 2nd edition and have all the materials (except US).
    May I please ask you to review my summary for flaws? Thank you so much Neil... below;
    1. For 12 inch LP heavily soiled used records,
    2. Install: Waterproof label protectors 'WEWU ROUNDS LP Vinyl Record Label Saver Vinyl Record Clean Saver Record Cleaning Protector Waterproof Label Saver Record Cleaner Clamp Care'
    3. Pre-Rinse: with warm tap water steady stream.
    4. Pre-Clean: with Alconox Liquinox 0.1% (10 mL to 32 ounces), brush 3-5 equivalent revolutions with back-and-forth motion using 'Record Doctor™ Clean Sweep Record Brush'. Operating the sprayer slowly (versus quick full-pumps) to reduce the amount of airborne aerosol. Less than 5 minutes exposure per record side.
    5. Rinse: warm tap water steady stream using 'Record Doctor™ Clean Sweep Record Brush' for gentle paintbrush motions parallel with grooves.
    6. Rinse: warm tap water steady stream the 'Record Doctor Brush'.
    7. Pre-Clean #2: with Alconox Citronox 1.5%, spray, brush, rinse the same as #4-5 above.
    8. Final-Clean: with Dow™ Tergitol™ 15-S-9 surfactant 0.1% solution" (1 mL to 32 ounces). Spray, brush, rinse the same as #4-5 above.
    9. Ultrasonic (Undecided which will be best... A, B, or C below): 6 Liter, 40Hz, 5 minutes, 1-2 RPM, 1 or 2 12" records max.
      (A): Wewu Rounds LP Vinyl Record Ultrasonic Cleaner with Records Bracket 1-5, 4 RPM
      (B): DK SONIC 6L Large Touch Ultrasonic Cleaner with Heater, Timer, Multiple Cleaning Mode. Will need a Record Bracket 6 RPM 'WEWU ROUNDS 12" LP 7" EP Vinyl Records Bracket for 6L Ultrasonic Cleaner Simple Version', and a voltage reducer due to too high 6 RPM 'SHNITPWR 3V ~ 24V 3A 72W Power Supply Adjustable DC'
      (C): Vevor 6l Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner Cleaning Machine Complete W/drying Rack, 720 degrees/minute (2 RPM).
    10. Ultrasonic solution: Dow™ Tergitol 15-S-9 at about 0.01 to 0.015% (100-150 PPM) assuming no rinse or 0.025 to 0.05% (250-500 ppm) if rinsing is planned.
    11. If Final rinse, use Distilled water to spray both sides with garden sprayer 'Chapin 1-Gallon Plastic Handheld Sprayer'
    12. First Dry: Blot both sides with PVA Cleanroom Sponge (Manufacturer recommended 5-10 firm soak/squeeze with distilled water prior to use)
    13. Second Dry: Light circular wipe motions with Kinetronics™ Tiger anti-static cloth
    14. Air Dry: Run on 'high setting', 30 minutes prior, Honeywell PowerPlus HEPA Air Purifier, Extra-Large Room. Dry Records for 3 hours at 76 degrees Farenheight.
    15. Records are placed to dry on: Bamboo Dish Drying Rack - Threshold™
     
  20. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Step 4, typo, use Liquinox at 1.0%. The 10-mL per 32 oz will give about 1%.

    Step 9, if you are going to use a Ultrasonic Cleaning Machine (UCM) - no reason for Item 8 - See Chapter XIV.9.2.c. After Item 7, add Item 5 & 6. For Step 9, the UCM, I make no recommendations. Being all 40 kHz and made in China they are all variations of the same theme and power. Also, once you step to a UCM, bath management as discussed in the book Chapter XIV becomes an issue and you will find these inexpensive UCM very noisy. However, before buying a UCM try just the complete manual procedure - you may find it completely satisfactory.

    Step 11, just use a simple spray bottle - you do not need the pressure of the handheld sprayer you show - you will end up with water spray everywhere.

    Item 14. Use that unit when you start cleaning to keep the general area clean - so turning it on becomes Step 1. Otherwise, after Steps 12 & 13, the record will be dry in <10 min. If I am cleaning 3 or more records, by the time I am cleaning the 3rd record the 1st is dry and ready to be re-sleeved. I generally clean a batch of 6-records. I am done, with all records cleaned, sleeved, and everything put away or hung to dry in ~60 min.

    So, to start, just try the following full manual procedure which is what I use for all records regardless. If the record is still noisy after the 3rd play, then I will do the Citranox soak. To your list of items add some lint-free microfiber cloths - uses these to dry your hands (they will get wet) in-between steps.

    1. Wipe down area and turn-ON , Honeywell PowerPlus HEPA Air Purifier, Extra-Large Room.
    2. Install: Waterproof label protectors 'WEWU ROUNDS LP Vinyl Record Label Saver Vinyl Record Clean Saver Record Cleaning Protector Waterproof Label Saver Record Cleaner Clamp Care'
    3. Pre-Rinse: with warm tap water steady stream.
    4. Pre-Clean: with Alconox Liquinox 1.0% (10 mL to 32 ounces), brush 3-5 equivalent revolutions with back-and-forth motion using 'Record Doctor™ Clean Sweep Record Brush'. Operating the sprayer slowly (versus quick full-pumps) to reduce the amount of airborne aerosol. Less than 5 minutes exposure per record side. Note - you do not to spend more than about 1-min/side cleaning.
    5. Rinse: warm tap water steady stream using 'Record Doctor™ Clean Sweep Record Brush' for gentle paintbrush motions parallel with grooves. After rinsing record, rinse brush separately to ensure removal of cleaner.
    6. Pre-Clean #2: with Alconox Citronox 1.5% (15 mL to 32 oz), spray, brush, rinse the same as #4 & 5 above.
    7. Final-Clean: with Dow™ Tergitol™ 15-S-9 surfactant 0.1% solution" (1 mL to 32 ounces). Spray, brush, rinse the same as #4 & 5 above.
    8. Final-Rinse with DIW-spray bottle.
    9. First Dry: Blot/wipe both sides with PVA Cleanroom Sponge (Manufacturer recommended 5-10 firm soak/squeeze with distilled water prior to first use)
    10. Second Dry: Light circular wipe motions with Kinetronics™ Tiger anti-static cloth
    11. Remove record from label protector and using Kinetronics™ Tiger anti-static cloth wipe away any drops of water
    12. Place records to dry on: Bamboo Dish Drying Rack - Threshold.
    13. After about 6-records, wring-out the PVA sponge to remove water. After you are done with cleaning, rinse the brush with DIW allow dry and store in plastic bag/package, and wring-out the PVA sponge and store wet; hang all cloths to dry.
    Good Luck,
    Neil
     
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  21. Geordiepete

    Geordiepete Tippet tyer

    Location:
    Japan
    Is there a one-paragraph tl;dr (too lazy; didn't read)?

    Edit: Oh, Jenn2021's post on page 1 did just that! Nice work!
     
  22. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Neil... hugs to you. :shtiphat:
    I can't thank you enough for your help, looking forward to cleaning waaaaaaaaay too many records this weekend.

    I forgot to add this in to the list (Excuse me)...
    a) Use vinyl gloves. I have these: Basic Disposable Vinyl Gloves One Size Fits Most
    b) Would the addition of an antistatic treatment prior to sleeving be benificial ? e.g. Milty Zerostat 3 Anti-Static Gun

    Best 2 U,
    Jennifer
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  23. madrac

    madrac Well-Known Member

    Location:
    houston, texas
  24. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Jennifer,

    The wet-cleaning process will remove any static from the record. But, subsequent handling as part of playing records (or the platter if not grounded) can sometimes cause a static charge to build-up on a record. If the record has a static charge - placing it near your arm - you will see the hairs on your arm attracted to the record. For a static removal device - buy this instead - much cheaper and it does work (@Phil Thien first identified it): Amazon.com: RONXS Lighter, Candle Lighter Camping Lighter Grill Lighter USB Lighter Plasma Arc with LED Battery Display Safety Switch, Longer Flexible Neck for Candle Cooking BBQs Fireworks : Health & Household.

    The reason the plasma lighter works is that the blue arc that is created is a corona. And corona's produce charged ions; and this device is producing positive ions that neutralize the negative-charge of static on the record. For use (keep away from the cartridge), circle the record for a few seconds, or as the record is turning - move across the record for a few seconds both of which will bath the entire record surface in positive ions; keeping the device about 1” above the record surface. The plasma lighter has a timed cycle so when it goes out, you can just re-light-it. If you buy it, play with it a bit - you will see quickly how it works. Otherwise, its also good for its intended purpose.

    For the 1st few record you clean, take your time - it's a steep learning curve. A couple of little tidbits that may help:

    1. I put different colored tape on the neck of each spray bottle because a couple times I lost track of what I was using and I was not reading the spray bottle label.

    2. Be liberal with the cleaner(s) on the record - if it drips-off into sink, no harm. Also, when I clean I will quickly clean on side to spread the cleaner, then clean the other quickly to spread the cleaner, and then go back and clean the 1st side and then the other side.

    3. Have one lint-free microfiber cloth/towel set-aside for placing the PVC sponge on when not being use. The lint-free microfiber cloth/towel will absorb some moisture from the sponge and keeps it clean.

    4. The PVA sponge if you wipe the surface - just use an edge of the sponge, and be advised it can make almost like a squeegee type sound. Its not damaging the record. As I address in the book, once the majority of water is removed, a quick shake will get most water that is under the label protector edge - there is a small edge before the O-ring.

    5. The Kinetronics Tiger Cloth does not absorb a lot of water. It use is mostly to spread out the remaining water to form a thin film which prevents creating any static and the thin water film is what allows the record to dry very quickly.

    Enjoy & Good Luck, & let us know how it worked for you
    Neil
     
    madrac likes this.
  25. Jenn

    Jenn Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Hi Neil.

    Wow! I can't believe my ears. I have been cleaning original pressings that are used and the results are amazingly quiet. Thank you so much for your help.
    I ran into some difficulty with removing some stubborn foreign matter and had to modify the procedure to be a bit more aggressive for the records with unknown kryptonite.

    May I ask you to please take a look for comments ? Please see below...
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Revision 02
    1. Wipe down area and turn-ON, Honeywell PowerPlus HEPA Air Purifier, Extra-Large Room.

    2. Install: Waterproof label protectors 'WEWU ROUNDS LP Vinyl Record Label Saver Vinyl Record Clean Saver Record Cleaning Protector Waterproof Label Saver Record Cleaner Clamp Care'

    3. Wear safety equipment to avoid chemical exposure to eyes, skin, lungs;
    1. Pre-Rinse: Warm tap water steady stream on both sides of record.

    2. 1st Clean: with Alconox Liquinox 1.0% (10 ml to 32 ounces)
      Maintain a liberal amount of liquid on both sides of the record, operating the sprayer slowly (versus quick full-pumps) to reduce the amount of airborne aerosol. Less than 5 minutes exposure per record side.
      Note – you do not need to spend more than about 1-min/side cleaning.
      a) Use brush 'Project Source 3-in Flat General Purpose Brush Polyester Paint Brush', brush 3-5 equivalent revolutions using gentle back-and-forth motion. Maintain brush bristles perpendicular to the record surface.
      b) Switch to brush 'Record Doctor™ Clean Sweep Record Brush', use the same brushing method as the paint brush (5a).

    3. Rinse Record: Warm tap water steady stream rinse both sides using brush 'Record Doctor™ Clean Sweep Record Brush', brush with gentle paintbrush motions parallel with grooves.

    4. Rinse Brushes: Warm tap water steady stream rinse both brushes to remove cleaner.

    5. 2nd Clean: with Alconox Citronox 1.5% (15 ml to 32 oz)
      Spray, Brush, Rinse record & brush the same method as #5-7 above.

    6. Final Clean: with Dow™ Tergitol™ 15-S-9 surfactant 0.1% solution" (1 ml to 32 ounces). Use only brush 'Record Doctor™ Clean Sweep Record Brush', Spray, Brush, Rinse the same as #5-7 above.

    7. Final Rinse: with Distilled Water.
      Use '32 oz. All-Purpose Sprayer Bottle', spray both record sides vigorously to remove tap water.

    8. First Dry: Remove Label Protector. Place record face down on top of pre-cleaned 'Spin-Clean Cloth'. Blot both sides of record with PVA Cleanroom Sponge to remove drops of water.

    9. Second Dry: Lightly wipe with circular motions using either 'Spin-Clean Cloth' or Kinetronics™ Tiger anti-static cloth. Don't press hard, use pressure only enough to remove leftover droplets. If you removed enough tap water during the distilled water rinsing, the distilled water should evaporate without leaving residue. Note: Manufacturer's recommendations are 5-10 firm soak/squeezes with distilled water prior to first use to prepare sponge, and clean/dry cloths per instructions prior to use. Wring out the sponge and change the cloths as needed.

    10. Place records to dry on: Bamboo Dish Drying Rack - Threshold.
     
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