Neil Young readies Pono music service for expansion Part 4

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by stereoptic, Oct 24, 2014.

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  1. Basically, the point is that flat-earthers are blindly sticking to a belief in old technology, disregarding the science behind hi-res, and castigating those who prefer hi-res as practicers of blasphemous voodoo.
     
    Grant likes this.
  2. pablorkcz

    pablorkcz ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

    The original post from the original thread that started 2 years ago was in reference to a Rolling Stone article that talks about Pono as a whole, including the player. http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/neil-young-readies-pono-music-service-for-expansion.297733/
    The player, amongst other things, has been discussed in each successive part.

    There are separate threads for just the store and just the player as well but that shouldn't keep anyone from bringing up anything that falls under the Pono umbrella that this thread covers.
     
  3. If you want an explanation of how the science of 24-bit resolution affects sound quality in the audible range, and specifically bass frequencies, read (and look at the graphs contained in) this fascinating analysis by the late Roger Nichols:

    http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may06/articles/rogernichols_0506.htm

    Likewise, if you'd like to understand how higher sample rates have audible effects, read up on sampling theory. For data with 44.1kHz sampling rates, aggressive anti-aliasing filters need to be employed before sampling to make sure that any inaudible frequency signal above 22.05kHz does not produce mirror image frequencies in the audible range were that signal to be sampled (this type of distortion is called "aliasing."). These filters are so aggressive that they cause 1-3dB roll off in the audible frequency range of 17kHz to 20Hz. By raising sampling rates to 48k, 96k, 192k, etc., gentler anti-aliasing filters can be used that do not cause roll off of audible frequencies and other distortions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
  4. therockman

    therockman Senior Member In Memoriam


    This thread is in the hardware section, the other thread which I am VERY active in, is in the music section. Hence, this thread is about hardware, the other thread seems to only be about the music. It seems very simple to me.
     
  5. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    It shouldn't be.
     
  6. Fritz G23

    Fritz G23 Forum Resident

    What other thread? Your previous links didn't make sense.
     
  7. jonboy71

    jonboy71 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oxnard, CA
    What triggers the blue light to come on the Pono players? Seems as if none of my HDTracks titles make it come on. The only time it comes on is when the pre loaded Neil Young track is played.
     
  8. Steve Martin

    Steve Martin Wild & Crazy Guy

    Location:
    Plano, TX
    Music sold from the Pono Store is tagged with a code computed from the song title and album title. People on the Pono forum have figured out how to compute it.

    Turns out if you change the song title of a Pono download the blue light stops working.

    I'm sure there will be a tool that you can run to tag any file you want with the right code for those that want to use the blue light for whatever meaning they want (I would make it light up for all high rez).
     
    Gaslight likes this.
  9. jonboy71

    jonboy71 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oxnard, CA
    Yes, I agree. It should light up for all high rez. Hopefully they will change that.
     
  10. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    Suggestion (as I don't have a Pono device): open up the NY file in a metatag viewer of some kind and see if there's something obvious like a "Pono" tag of some kind. Might be something that can be replicated to non-Pono FLAC files. :)
     
  11. Steve Martin

    Steve Martin Wild & Crazy Guy

    Location:
    Plano, TX
    Did you read my post? Yes, there is a tag. It is a hash computed from the other metadata so unique to each song.
     
  12. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    You wrote "tagged" but I wasn't certain that meant it was a metadata tag or not. Thank you for the clarification.

    Can you given an example of what this tag name is? Obviously I won't ask for the tag contents, I'm more interested in the tag name(s). If not, there's a good chance I'm going to buy at least one album soon so I'll keep this in mind.
     
  13. Steve Martin

    Steve Martin Wild & Crazy Guy

    Location:
    Plano, TX
    There is a whole thread about it on the Pono forum, I think there may even be code (or at least a description) to compute the hash. Something like append the song title, artist, and some string with "pono_something" then do an MD5 hash of it. Like I said I'm sure someone will write a little tool that you drag a flac onto and it tags it appropriately.
     
    Gaslight likes this.
  14. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    Thanks again. Btw, the reason why I'm asking is that I may will eventually retire my current portable devices and move towards something 24/96+ capable. And a Pono device is a potential option. So good information to know in advance if there's a way to create this tag, in my own FLAC files.
     
  15. Steve Martin

    Steve Martin Wild & Crazy Guy

    Location:
    Plano, TX
    I just tried to no avail to find the discussion in the Pono Community that I was reading just 2 or 3 days ago. They either took it down, I read it somewhere else, or their stupid community forum software is so bad that I just can't find it again. I think it is the 3rd thing.
     
    Gaslight likes this.
  16. ElvisCaprice

    ElvisCaprice Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jaco, Costa Rica
    What triggers the blue light to come on the Pono players? Music sold from the Pono Store is tagged with a code computed from the song title and album title.
    Oh brother! This is the kind of thing I dislike about companies trying to create brand loyalty thru novelty.
     
  17. Gaslight

    Gaslight ⎧⚍⎫⚑

    Location:
    Northeast USA
    True, but keep in mind that they are at least using FLAC and, more importantly, no DRM. The files will at least play on other devices outside of a Pono device.
     
  18. Archimago

    Archimago Forum Resident

    Hmmm... I don't think anyone denies that a good 24/96 recording is more accurate and preferable to 16/44 so long as one has no issue with the size. IMO if everything were done at 24/96 well, we can call it a day and focus on the music.

    The thing is, that article was from 2006 and limitations like linearity isn't an issue these days. Furthermore, human perception beyond 17kHz isn't a big deal for the roll-off nor aliasing products (otherwise everyone would detest NOS DACs and what folks like AudioNote do). In fact, many audiophile products purposely introduce even steeper than 3dB roll-off by 20kHz anyway and they sound great. Likewise, as we get older, science of course also predicts that this becomes even less significant.

    Look, there is no need to label anyone as a "flat-earther". Scientifically minded people realize that there are compromises and thresholds to everything. Audio science must be gauged through the lens of biology and what the world of psychoacoustics tell us about the limits of human perception - it ain't infinite as much as analogue pundits might want us to believe. That's also just being wise, IMO. In an ideal world, as I said, I would love to see 24/96+ for everything I own. But in the real world, nobody has been able to convincingly demonstrate a need beyond 16/44 despite the decades. And over time, the accuracy of DAC conversion has gotten better. Sure, here and there we see scientific articles talking about small numbers of people noticing a difference between sample rates or different upsampling filters. But they're not really of significance because where this has been demonstrated are generally in highly controlled settings with listening rooms, often with trained testers (audio engineers and other audio pros). Furthermore subtle differences like these would not really change the ability to enjoy the music as the ultimate goal anyhow when not A/B testing. We're not talking about guys walking around holding a Pono or folks in a typical domestic soundroom with elevated noise levels.

    Bottom line is that we can argue about the fine details for fun. We can all advocate for 24/96+ to achieve without really any question more than what's ever needed if the recording actually is created with that much potential resolution. We can demand good mixing/mastering to optimize realism and fight against dynamic range squashing. But I see nothing wrong with calling BS on guys like Neil Young who looks at trees ("24/192 all the way"), when the forest is burning (no remastering? Reissuing the same old poor mastering?). Likewise, there are other things in the audiophile world we need to have a good look at before accepting and using the lens of science to evaluate... Recently I've been a bit concerned about the Meridian MQA hype for example.

    Ultimately, this is all fun and hobbies for most of us here. So long as we're all in agreement that sound quality can be honestly and truthfully advanced, it's all good...
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2015
  19. Stereosound

    Stereosound Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    New update from Pono:

    Pono Will Soon Ship All Preorders and Begin Shipping-to-Order
    January 16, 2015

    Pono Will Soon Ship All Preorders and Begin Shipping-to-Order

    We are thrilled to announce that we will soon be exiting our “early supporter” phase and would like to thank all of our Kickstarter backers as well as all those who have placed PonoPlayer preorders. Your support has jumpstarted the Pono movement and has enabled us to help save music from compressed formats.

    For putting their faith in us and helping us get Pono off the ground, our Kickstarter backers with PonoPlayers received a $99 discount off our retail price, a bonus 64GB microSD card, and lifetime free resolution upgrades. We anticipate being able to provide the first round of free resolution upgrades for albums already purchased some time in February of 2015. You will forever have our gratitude.

    A special thanks goes out to our preorder customers who have been patiently waiting for their players. We’re happy to announce that we will start shipping the preorders next week and expect to finish shipments in early February. For their support, our preorder customers who placed their preorders before December 15, 2014 received a certificate of ownership hand-signed by Neil Young. Also, along with their PonoPlayers, all preorder customers will be receiving a 64GB microSD card, providing a total of 128GB of storage out of the box.
    Preorders Ending at the End of January
    Our preorders phase will be finished at the end of January, after which we will be offering PonoPlayers that will ship-to-order. These PonoPlayer will ship with only the 64GB of onboard storage, but without the bonus microSD card that shipped with the “early supporter” players. The PonoPlayer will continue to have the microSD expansion slot and our customers will be able to purchase microSD cards separately.

    To receive the bonus 64GB microSD card, you may consider placing your preorders by the end of January.

    Mahalo,
    The PonoMusic team
     
  20. Hey, I don't disagree with anything you said above. In fact, I agree with you on all those points. The people who are "flat-earthers," as far as hi-res are concerned, are those at xiph.org and some people on hydrogen audio and anythingbutipod.com who claim that hi-res has no benefit over redbook, period, and is some sort of scam to rip people off. To those, the term "flat-earther" is appropriate: ignoring science, clinging to old beliefs, denouncing hi-res proponents as kooks, idiots, criminals, idolaters.
     
    Grant likes this.
  21. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    The way the PonoMusic Community discussion area is implemented is confusing. It's not a normal forum like this place is. Discussions seem to be grouped by tagging the various threads and posts. Discussions then can get grouped by their tags. Sort of like trying to group Twitter by hashtags. A mess.

    There also seems to be no way to search for words in the message body. Got to get lucky and hope the message has been tagged with something that you can find. A mess.

    Anyways... The thread that mentions how the PHC value is calculated is tagged as "PHC Tag Value" and "Pono Blue Light"
    I think this link will take you there if you're logged in:
    https://ponomusic.force.com/_ui/cor...&ref=feed_item_topic&entityId=0D51500001aTOZj

    It looks simple. No fancy encryption keys that need to be brute forced to decrypt. Just concatenate two tags and do an MD5 on that. Looks simple. I haven't played around with it yet.

    Would be neat to be able to have all of my high-res activate the blue light. I've got several albums in both 16/44.1 and high-res. Right now it is a bit difficult to figure out which is which on my PonoPlayer. Having the blue light activate would make seeing which is which much easier.
     
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  22. cwsiggy

    cwsiggy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vero Beach, FL
    Quick comment on Blue Light. I downloaded Plant's new lp ( the only one I've been able to download - rest now fail but that's another issue) two tracks had the same name, so I corrected the name on one track. I can't remember if I did this in the Pono software or Mac but regardless, the blue light no longer lights up for that one track that I manually corrected the name... I most certainly did not touch any meta fields other than the name of track..
     
  23. Steve Martin

    Steve Martin Wild & Crazy Guy

    Location:
    Plano, TX
    As expected. When you get a file from Pono, the phc tag contains a value computed from the release_guid, song title, and artist. Change any one of them and it won't verify on the device and no blue light.
     
  24. Fritz G23

    Fritz G23 Forum Resident

    Why is "verification on the device" and the blue light important? Does it downsample if that is not on?
     
  25. cwsiggy

    cwsiggy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vero Beach, FL
    It's not - just a bit of a gimmick. If you buy a track directly from Pono - you get the blue light (probably has to be hi-rez) if not - no blue light - kinda silly frankly...
     
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