New Model Army - my new favorite band! (literally based on the first 29 min of them I've ever heard)

But what do brand names, discos, money and power have to do with confederate states? Hence you need to take the song as a whole!

 

Hey, I was the one who told you to take the song as a whole. You are the one completely disregarding the first verse!

Look, Sullivan's lyrics can go all over the place in a single song. Give the new "Conversation" a listen -- the first verse deals with seagulls!

 

Though Sullivan (and the rest of the band I assume) is decidedly left-wing, he seems to take a perverse pleasure/pride in not having quite fit in with the rest of the British leftists of the 80s music scene (even though they probably had 95% similar viewpoints). In many of the interviews with him that I've read, Justin says that people assume he's writing about his personal political views in songs, when in fact sometimes he's writing in character or just writing about how people feel about a particular subject, not how he necessarily feels about that subject. There have certainly been times in NMA's career where they didn't play songs such as Vengeance for long periods of time because he didn't want to be defined by the song.

My guess is that Justin believed in the viewpoints expressed in songs like Vengeance and The Hunt at the time he wrote them, but as his views matured he realized that fascists often use people's desire for justice to justify some pretty nasty stuff. He seems like a really thoughtful and intelligent guy, definitely anti-facist, and though he may not want to admit it, probably doesn't see the world in quite the same black & white way that he did when he was young. Still enjoys being a bit of a contrarian though.

I thought this was a pretty good interview with him from 2008 that touches on some of these subjects.

Alienated in Vancouver: The New Model Army: Tribal Warfare and Western Civilization

 

I 100% agree with you!
(Almost) everyone seems to miss Stuart Morrow and i really enjoy what he did in NMA (fantastic songs and bass lines for example, "Vengeance", "The Price", "1984", "No man's land", "Frightened", etc) but his "in your face" "flashy" style maybe would have locked NMA in a particular kind of sound in their next albums...Jason Harris was very good and i really miss Nelson in the band, too!

 

I remember Sullivan saying things like these in french interviews:

"I know on which side i'm in, i'm and always will be an old school socialist/left wing. But emotions/feelings are not philosophy, they are contradictory like us human beings often are...that's why i can write a bleak/desperate/tough song like "Vengeance" or "Innocence" and then write a song like "Eleven years", full of optimism and love for live!"
"Vengeance" was written by Sullivan just after he watched on tv a documentary about Klaus Barbie, i also remember Sullivan saying that the band stopped to play this song after 11/9 because "there was enough vengeance in the world" at this time !
In the NMA documentary Sullivan also says that Greenpeace was intrigued about the band because of "Ballad" and "White coats" but when Greenpeace heard of "Vengeance" they didn't want the band to play a gig for them anymore!!

Scobb: "If you wish to view our "heroes" as slavers and Hitler then...... I'm not sure many people would agree and it is clear (given his other lyrics) that Sullivan was not talking about these types of people!"

Yes, just read the lyrics of "Vengeance" or "Christian Milita" and they will suggest what Mr Sullivan thinks of Hitler and his friends!

But it's probably true that some silly listeners can misread the lyrics of a few NMA songs like "Vengeance" or "The hunt", thinking the band is all about call to arms and far wing politics!

Thunderman: "Give the new "Conversation" a listen -- the first verse deals with seagulls!"

One of the very best songs in my opinion from the new album!
The seagulls and sea part of the song was inspired by Sullivan from the movie "The Deep" about a true story.

Ericthegardener: "Though Sullivan (and the rest of the band I assume) is decidedly left-wing, he seems to take a perverse pleasure/pride in not having quite fit in with the rest of the British leftists of the 80s music scene (even though they probably had 95% similar viewpoints). In many of the interviews with him that I've read, Justin says that people assume he's writing about his personal political views in songs, when in fact sometimes he's writing in character or just writing about how people feel about a particular subject, not how he necessarily feels about that subject. There have certainly been times in NMA's career where they didn't play songs such as Vengeance for long periods of time because he didn't want to be defined by the song."

Sullivan is talking about all of this, the "polemical" side of the band in their early days, in the "Between dog and wolf the NMA story" documentary.

"though he may not want to admit it, probably doesn't see the world in quite the same black & white way that he did when he was young"

He also said that mostly all he had to say about politics was in NMA's first two albums...he is older now and he has matured so his journey for years and years now seems mostly on the "spiritual" side after the early albums of the band which were mostly angry and politics.

 

What a ridiculous and naïve thing to say. You honestly think Hitler and slave owners weren't heroes to people? Uhh, then how do you explain this statue that was erected for Jefferson Davis - President of the Confederacy and owner of 113 human beings

Drag it down, drag it down... Thankfully someone did their own art work on that statue.

 

Fair warning, my comment here is barely a millimeter deep...

But apart from my enthusiastic interest in the music (meaning the lyrics could have all been in Swahili), I will say that the general sophisticated nature of the lyrics, and their (generally) political and socio-political nature, were and are also a big draw for me.

I'm NOT normally huge on lyrics as being the key driver of my interest in music. But certainly listening to Gang of Four a LOT over the last couple years has really given me more to chew on (lyrically) than I normally ever pay close attention to.

Likewise, NMA is (or will) push a lot of those same buttons for me -- as their lyrics inevitably worm their way into my cranium.

Some of Pete Townshend's solo stuff does that for me too, as well as Death Cab For Cutie -- though neither are anywhere near as political. But Gang of Four -- SHEESH -- it's ALL politics and gender-dynamics, and social justice stuff. And despite my initial (and deeper) interest in the music -- it's fun to have lyrics pushing my buttons as much (eventually) for a change (since I'm so much more a "music" guy, when it comes to all of this).

My new NMA-based Pandora station keeps serving me up stuff from all throughout the bands long career and output, and I swear every other song has me doing a double-take when a few of the lyrics catch my ear (which isn't super-usual for me, especially listening to tunes that are totally new to me -- I usually have to hear a song 2-3 times, before I pay all that much to the lyrics, if then even).

 

Well, I don't agree with some of it, but there are trends in leftist thought that are cool with it. Think of the anarchist notions of "propaganda of the deed" and acts of "individual terror" that are deemed as acceptable to some and not to others. For example, Trotsky was highly critical of these types of individualist anarchist acts and he wrote a lot on it. At the time, a set of anarchist disagreed with him, but he was resolute in his criticism.

 

Of course left and right is not set in stone; lefties can adopt right wing thought (Japanese internment camps) and right wing can adopt left wing thought (Nixon founded the EPA). Vengeance? Yes, right and left are guilty of it throughout history, but most would consider the idea of eschewing due process to be an extreme right wing notion.

 

There's been much talk on this thread about the political nature of New Model Army's lyrics; but we must tell a new guy like you that NMA is not all political music. In fact it isn't that much of their canon.

The majority of what NMA songs deal with is simply who we are in society. Our lives. Yes, those lives entwine with politics from time to time so New Model Army lyrics touch on that. But for me the best songs lyrically were the ones that captured feeling I've had or paint pictures of people I know. "Notice Me," "Waiting," "Smalltown England," "225," and particularly the masterwork "Better Than Them" are lyrics that so perfectly capture what it is to be living in our world.

What made their lyrics really great is that I am a New Yorker, the furthest thing from a guy from Smalltown, England Bradford, yet Sullivan's lyrics spoke to me. His lyrics truly are universal. I really did know those people in "Better Than Them." I personally knew those money-men who play paint ball games from the song "Here Comes The War." Forget about NMA political lyrics. Delve into their lyrics about who we are and how we live, that's the real treasure of this band.

 

Question for everyone on this thread:

Which are your 10 or 20 favourite NMA songs, for the lyrics and/or the music?

Often in NMA's songs, Justin Sullivan's voice and his way of delivering the words are enough to move me, even before i translate his lyrics and try to understand their various meanings.

 

That's very hard to do with a band that is a favorite and one that has 13 albums, so much material. One day these are your favorites a month later another set could easily be listed. That's the way things work with a favorite band and one with soooo much great material.

But I'll give some standout songs both lyrically and musically that I am so glad I heard:

I Wish
Smalltown England
Spirit Of The Falklands
Notice Me
Running In The Rain
No Rest

Frightened
Better Than Them​

Ambition
Young Gifted And Skint
No Greater Love

Western Dream ​

51st State
225
The Long Goodbye
Luhrstaap
Space
Here Comes The War
Ten Commandments
Courage
Prison

You Weren't There
Island
Burning Season
Seven Times
Summer Moors

Wired -- a lot of the "High" album is very good, I could list five or so more songs from it​

And you know there are thirty or so other songs that I could list that are just as good.

 

And I would counter this by asking you if you think NMA are amongst these people and that is what they meant Drag It Down to be about? Perhaps Bowie was singing about General Lee and Hitler kissing by the the Berlin Wall, I personally doubt it as I doubt that NMA had any right wing intention when they wrote Drag It Down! If you wish to think they were thinking of Hitler or Confederate heroes then that's you interpretation, however, I hope you can see that there is a different interpretation which fits the song.

Lushtaap has a similar vibe when they sang "You tore the statues to the ground crying, let my people go" he is also warning "Beware the trinkets that we bring". In this case they are clearly Communist statues but it's still capitalism that he's warning of.

 

Wow. Yeah, that's what Justin Sullivan meant "Drag It Down" to be about. He's such a brilliant lyricist that when he sat down to write that song in 1984 he was writing about an event that would be happening in Charlottesville, Virginia in the year 2017. Yup, "Drag It Down" is from 1984....Charlottesville is 2017 and Justin Sullivan was predicting events 33 years into the future.

Once more. The song's lyrics could easily be co-opted by right wingers. Do you understand what co-opt means?

 

Not if you take the song as a whole! Your original statement suggested you found some of their lyrics too right wing, and it's fine if you do, however, without selectively quoting from the song, to subvert the meaning, I simply can't agree with you! In my opinion Drag It Down is an anti Thatcherism/capitalist song! We seem to be going around in circles, I'm sorry I don't agree with you, you are entitled to your opinion now let's move on.....

 

I think the more we can stay away from political discussions in the thread the better. I realize NMA is a very political/socially active band, but I just don't see things ending well for this thread if this particularly narrative is continued. Obviously on another forum this kind of banter wouldn't be a problem, but, as we all know, it IS here. NMA is a great band and has a rabid, but rather small following. Let's not sabotage ourselves here talking about them by the letting the thread go into territories where it will get flagged, shut down, or heavily edited.

 

I would agree 100% with the part of lyrics being particularly strong for NMA/Justin Sullivan. I don't give a snot about lyrics in most music, but there's something about the music of NMA that makes me pay attention. Maybe it's the sparseness of the music or Sullivan's insistent vocal, but I do catch a lot of what he sings about in almost any song. Now, can I say exactly what the song in question I'm listening to is about? No, but I can recite a lot of the lyrics of NMA's songs and I can't even do that with bands I've listened to more extensively over the years like Black Sabbath, Killing Joke, Rush, or Wovenhand or example. I guess that says something for Sullivan's talent as a lyricist and the musical arrangements of the band.

 

20? I could probably give you five if I thought about it. "Fate" from The Love of Hopeless Causes is one I really like. Obviously, "225" from Thunder is another as well as "Nothing Touches". I like "Over the Wire" and "Big Blue" from Strange Brotherhood a lot. "Living in the Rose" and "Master Race" are two others that are favorites. There are many, many others.

Actually, I gave you seven. That's pretty good for me!

 

I also love these songs,
"Fate" is my favourite from 'The love of hopeless causes" and "225" is one of the very best and most thrilling of "Thunder and consolation", it's a relevant song too...i am never tired of these songs! Also "Nothing touches" is beautiful, Justin's voice is incredible on it, so sweet and delicate...moving, and underrated because NMA never plays it live!

Also, from the first album to the last...:

"The price"...fantastic mood and bass lines on this song...sounds a bit like The Police too?

"The attack"...one of Sullivan's first acoustic "hits"!

"The hunt", "Lights go out", "Poison street" and "Western dream"...well the whole "The ghost of Cain" album!

"I love the world" one of NMA's most powerful anthems and best opening tracks..."225"..."Ballad of bodmin pill"..."Family"..."Family Life"..."The charge"...well, the whole "Thunder and consolation" album!

"Marrakesh"

"Purity"

"Bury the hatchet"

"Eleven years"

"White light"

"Drummy B"

"Marry the sea"

"Wonderful way to go"

"Headlights"

"Orange tree roads"

"You weren't there"

"Someone Like Jesus"

"Leed road 3am"

"Falling"

"Far better thing"

"Rainy night 65"

"Another imperial day"

"One bullet"

"Rumour and rapture"

"High"..."No mirror, no shadow"...Dawn"..."Into the wind"..."Rivers"...well almost the whole "High" album!

"States radio"

"Peace is only"

"Disappeared"

"Mambo queen of the sandstone city"

"March in September"..."Seven times"..."I need more time"..."Pull the sun"...well half of the "Between dog and wolf" album!

"According to you"

"Happy to be here"

"Devil's bargain"

"Born feral"

"Strogoula"

"Never arriving"

"Conversation"

"From here"

 

Whilst giving The Love Of Hopeless Causes another go it occurred to me that it sounded much more "in your face" than the previous albums. This prompted me to look at the dynamic range database website and, low and behold, all the highest ranking albums have the most dynamic range. I wonder if this is coincidence or if it's a factor? The last few albums are really compressed but that's easy to hear!

Album list - Dynamic Range Database

PS: I don't know what it is about The Love Of Hopeless Causes (maybe it's too short, maybe is the lack of dynamic range?). I like a lot of the songs but.... I don't feel the passion (ie I'm just not passionate for it) like I do with the prior albums. Yes Here Comes The War is an exception (even though it has the lowest dynamic range).

 

I like the sound of this album and i also like the fact that it's a short length album, like "The ghost of Cain" was...and unlike NMA's last albums ("Between dog and wolf", "Winter" and "From here") which, as good as they are, are a bit overlong/drag/stretch at times!
I somewhat agree that this album has "less passion" despite the powerful "Here comes the war" "White light" or "Fate"...it is less epic, less violins, has less anthems than "Thunder and consolation"...but passion is still there for me, in a more "'low key" way maybe...

 

10 campaign songs that backfired on the candidates

 

and don't forget NMA's official site and board, for those who are interested:

The official NMA board - Index

 

Can't remember who posted the link to the Alienated in Vancouver interview, but thanks. A very illuminating article that addresses quite well some of the very arguments posed in this thread. He was also (unfortunately) pretty damn prescient with his remarks about tribalism.


Here it is if you missed it: Alienated in Vancouver: The New Model Army: Tribal Warfare and Western Civilization

 

Right after starting this thread, I created a new NMA-based channel on Pandora (with NMA as the only seed). I thought I'd mention here's some of what played on it this morning as I was getting ready for work, and on my subway ride downtown. Talk about variety!!

(In most cases, I'll just mention artist names.)

• The Smiths
• The Buzzcocks
• Pixies
• Sisters of Mercy
• The Prids (never heard of this band - ?)
• Depeche Mode
• The Editors
• The Rifles (early 2000's neo-Mod brit band, name from The Jam's "The Eton Rifles")
• Bad Religion
• The Clash
• REM
• Echo & The Bunnymen
• Johnny Cash(!!)
• New Order(!!)
• Gene Loves Jezebel
• The Cult
• PIL
• Placebo
• Bauhaus

I *LOVE* finding bands that defy super-easy genre categorization, because it trips out Pandora a bit, and it serves up all kinds of otherwise seemingly disparate stuff -- like Jonny Cash & New Order together.

Priums is another band that does this (I've never done a deep dive on Priums -- I just know that Pandora draws from all the hell over the place when trying to play music that's 'similar').

And so too NMA is a little like this too -- a little of this, a little of that, and a little of this other thing.