new Onkyo sacd/ dvd-a question

Ive heard the problems with the pioneer dvd-a /sacd players doing the dsd to pcm crap with sacd. The onkyo looks neat and it is around 1 grand .Does the onkyo combo player avoid this problem with sacd. onkyo builds nice audio & video equipment most of the time without major compromisses.

 

Hmm...my Pioneer DVD-A/SACD player hasn't exhibited those problems that I can tell. If you have, say, a 5.1/stereo SACD disc, how is that going to be converted to PCM? I hear 5.1 hi-rez, and that's also what the indicator light says. As for DVD-Audio, the player should default to hi-rez; in the menu, you can make adjustments for PCM, I believe, if necessary.

ED

 

Ed--which Pioneer do you have? Was it the DV-45A, or a different model? That's the one I have in my gun sights right now.

One thing I'm curious about, which may not be possible: is there any way to get PCM 44.1/16 data out of these SACD or DVD-A players? I could see copying these to CD or MiniDisc. I am also leaning toward a Pioneer Elite receiver (TSX-45)...so if either the receiver or disc player could send out CD-level data, I'd be happy. I may also check, since some digital computer cards can perform sample rate conversion on the fly. But obviously, only with PCM data.

 

Rudy, I have the Pioneer DV-45A and it will output a PCM 44.1/16 along with Dolby Digital and DTS through it's optical and co-ax digital outputs.

Only the Hi rez formats are not availble at the digital outputs.

Brian

 

Hmmm...odd. Does that mean I'd have to use an analog connection to, say, the Pioneer receiver if playing back SACD or DVD-A? I guess with SACD it would have to, since I don't see that being an option in the receiver. Just seems like I'd be using two inputs (analog and digital) for one component.

But 44.1/16 on the optical output is great news--I can still transfer music into the computer or MiniDisc deck. As long as SCMS doesn't stop it...I know I can't get coaxial digital out of my Toshiba DVD player without it triggering the Copy Prohibit flag. Moot point for my digital sound card in the computer--it ignores SCMS.

 

The latest Perfect Vision has mini-reviews (in a survey of DVD players) of 3 different "universal" players, a Pioneer (47, not 45), Onkyo and Marantz. While it praises the picture of all three, and the CD sound of the Pioneer, it says all three fall short of the sound quality of players that play one hi-rez format or the other. I haven't heard a universal player myself, though I appreciate the idea. I've enjoyed SACD and haven't missed DVD-A. Yet.

 

I only plan on buying one "everything" player, which is why I'm watching all of these players closely. Ideally mine would be a 300-disc changer that plays everything, but nobody makes one yet. Especially with DVD movies, it would be nice to have everything loaded up and ready to go...and would help me keep the discs away from "little hands".

 

Had I not already purchased my Sony DVD-V/SACD player when I did, I might have held out for the Pioneer DV-45, and I might have purchased it from dvdcity.com where it can be had without region restrictions. Oh well.

 

The only issue I've heard of is that the Pioneers don't do Bass Mgmt right. I've held off so far because I don't want to have to buy another piece of equipment (ICBM) for the 45a to work right.

 

And I was under the impression that the stereo-only Pioneer universal player converted DSD to PCM but that the 47a(i) and 45a do not. I haven't looked under the hood, though, and I can't say that I'd know what I was looking for if I did open the case.

 

Yes. And I hope your receiver does not digitize the analog input to run DSP equalization programs or bass management stuff, or you'll lose all the beauty of SACD.

It's also possible that feeding the analogue signal from the SACD player into the analogue inputs of the minidisc player may sound better than feeding the digital stream from the CD layer of a hybrid. I don't have any experience with minidisc so I don't know how the A-D's work or what digital processes it applies to a Redbook stream (compression). But if it was my gear, I'd experiment.

Regards,
Geoff

 

I don't own the receiver yet, but since I'm looking at beefing up my home theater setup, I just want something I'm not going to regret after the fact. That was one reason I considered making my own A/B switch to the main amp I use for the L/R speakers...I could switch them to the receiver when playing movies or multichannel, and keep it all 100% analog by switching to my existing preamp. (I have a few other analog sources, two turntables, and four different analog tape recorders dependent on it. ) Kinda bassackwards, but there's no loss or degradation in a good A/B switch. And grabbing the analog output from the DV-45A and sending it to the preamp would bypass any possible processing in the receiver.

The Pioneer does offer different 'environment' modes...that now makes me think they probably digitize even the analog inputs.

Since I use MiniDisc for portable or non-critical purposes, whatever comes out of the digital side is good enough for me. I probably couldn't hear the difference anyway.

I do wish Pioneer Elite had a preamp...something like the TSX-45TX or -47TX but without the power amp section. I can provide my own power...

 

I'm not sure why a universal player would sound worse than a single format player--there is a just an extra chip or two in there to decode the other format. Then this just feeds into the shared analog output stages.....right?

I can see a budget manufacturer cutting back on other components (quality wise) to make up for the extra chip(s), but an Elite, Onkyo or especially, the Marantz?

[T]

 

Yes. That's the case will 99.9% of DVD-A and SACD players on the market now, due to industry fears of hi-rez pirating. Meridian, Pioneer and Denon are three companies i can think of offhand who now offer very expensive proprietary and supposedlu copy -proof all-digital hi-rez connections in a few models of player/receiver combos.

Unless you have the new top of the line pioneer receiver, you will have to use analog connections for SACD/DVD-A playback.

Some soundcards now do DVD-A (and possibly SACD) -- I don't know how they handle the digital stream.

 

Based on my tests of my Pioneer 45a , I can attest It doesn't do *any* DVD-A speaker size management; it does do SACD and DD/DTS speaker spize management.

As IME there is little if any audible difference between DD/DTS/CD/Hi-rez ,and most DVD-As provide the same material in multiple formats, this isn't a big issue, However, I can't understand why the manufacturers can't get all this right, two years or more into the 'hi rez' revolution.

 

Or so some believe.

Regardless of that, 6-ch Analog inputs are often 'passthrough' and are only subject to gain increase/decrease control.

I've run hi-rez through an ICBM module into the analog 6-ch of a Yamaha HTR 5540, and through its CD analog 2-ch inputs with digital bass management (I assume Yamaha's BM is digital, since they are committed digitalphiles) . When levels are roughly matched, I'm hard pressed to say which is which. There's no dramatic loss or gain of 'beauty' in either case. My favorite SACD -- stravinsky's Firebird Suite, conducted by the composer -- sounds darned thrilling either way.

 

To be brutally honest, this is all confusing the sh@t out of me right now...and I KNOW all of the digital formats! How are the "Joe Sixpack" consumers ever going to understand all of it? I'm just tempted to skip it all for a few more years until these companies figure out what the heck they're doing, and stick to redbook CDs. I have no burning desire to get SACD *or* DVD-A. But I do need a new DVD player, and have already vowed that the next disc player I buy should play everything. Or I just get a cheap Toshiba for the time being, which is cheaper than getting my current Toshiba repaired.

 

They're not. That's whyt he Dolby Digital or DTS tracks are included on DVD-A. However, DVD-A players tend to default to DVD-A when playing a DVD-A disc -- bad news for Joe again! Then again, Joe may not even notice that his satellites are trying in vain to pump out 50 Hz DVD-A signals, unless he cranks the music.

If mfrs really wanted to help Joe without (heaven forbid) providing hi-rez through the digital connection, they could make the players default to DVD-V (Dolby Digital or DTS) group when playing a DVD-A, and let Joe use the bass management /delay settings of his receiver. John Microbrew, who's convinced that DVD-A is VASTLY superior sounding to lowly Dolby Digital, can take it upon himself to toggle ithe playher to DVD-A (after all, he *lives* to play with this stuff.)

In many ways this is the sensible thing to do.

I would guess that within two years we *will* have either cheap players with digital out AND/OR cheap players with full bass and delay management for all analog-out signals.

 

I wanted a digital output for three reasons:

1. To transfer to the computer (either as 44.1/16 or 96/24) for making CD compilations;

2. To copy to the MiniDisc deck.

3. To keep the signal digital, and decode it in whatever receiver or preamp I end up getting.

It just looks like it *might* work, but then again it might not.

You think Joe Sixpack will hear how good DVD-A and SACD sound on his Bose Acoustimess system?

 

These make you the record companies' worst nightmare re: hi-rez.

 

Well hey, I already own a CD-RW drive, a computer, and an internet connection...therefore, I'm ALREADY an illegal pirate by the music industry's standards.

 

Hi,

I believe. Our opinions may be largely based up our preferences: mine for analog and your's appears to be digital.

What i like most about SACD (DSD) is that i find it more liquid/analog sounding and i wanna take that feed analog ASAP. The last thing i wanna do is put it into another piece of digital hardware. I would never wanna expose the DSD to other digital formats which i consider inferior.

Just Another View,
Jeffrey