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New Yamaha AS-1200, 2200 vs 1100, 2100

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by nyrjoe, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. nyrjoe

    nyrjoe Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Has anyone gone from the 1100, 2100 to the new 1200, 2200? Can you describe if there has been a change in voicing, sound quality? Though not advertised, Yamaha has confirmed to me the continued use of Mosfets on this years model. The few online reviews on the 1200, 2200 I can find seem to indicate these have more punch and presence?

    Thanks
     
  2. Helom

    Helom DavidR’s man crush

    Location:
    U.S.
    The reviews speak of a forward midrange, which is surprising because if anything, the mids in the 1100 are recessed. Maybe they did alter the voicing.
     
  3. Vibrolux_Reverb

    Vibrolux_Reverb Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA


    This does a direct comparison between the two.
     
  4. nyrjoe

    nyrjoe Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Thanks for the link. What about voicing of a 1100 vs 2100? I ask because I got a 2100 a month ago (Yamaha recertified) have over 100 hours. I really enjoy the overall tone of the amp. But I feel the mids are really aggressive in volume. They are not harsh or inaccurate, but as I raise the volume, the mids/vocals are presented way too loud in comparison to other frequencies. I find myself lowering the amp volume as vocals sound shouty. I've read some review, comments that the 1100 projects mids, a bit less? Not sure of that's accurate, but would be great to know as I can still exchange the 2100 for a 1100. There is nothing on the 2100 I need over the 1100, just after the best SQ possible. Main source is vinyl.

    Thanks
     
  5. Helom

    Helom DavidR’s man crush

    Location:
    U.S.
    In my system, the 1100’s mids, especially vocals, are recessed compared to that of other amps, sometimes annoyingly so. Compared to my Benchmark AHB2, arguably the most neutral amp in existence, the 1100 presents vocals with a 6-th row presentation as opposed to 3rd-row, which I’d consider most natural.

    The Yamahas do have a bit of a V-curve where the lower treble can often be a little louder than the mids (500 to 2kHz). If that’s the real culprit I doubt you’ll resolve your issue by switching to an 1100.

    You might consider the Rega Elex-R which is a bit more neutral, and maybe just slightly warmer overall. Tonality is less saturated than the Yamaha’s.
     
  6. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    I've discussed in earlier posts that I had a similar issue with my A-S3000 during the break-in period. The problem resolved itself when I upgraded my interconnects and power cables which provided a much more balanced sound, so that may be a consideration for you. It was well worth the money for me, and not just because of the vocals issue. My overall noise level dropped with more detail and dynamics emerging.
     
  7. Helom

    Helom DavidR’s man crush

    Location:
    U.S.
    ^ as mentioned above they do smooth out with break-in. If you haven't already, leave the amp powered on for a good whole day or two.
     
    OC Zed likes this.
  8. nyrjoe

    nyrjoe Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Thanks for the tips. The amp is a Yamaha recertified and I have no way of knowing if it’s been burnt in by a previous owner. Ive put it through a hundred hours myself this far before checking in here. Will hope it settles up some. My interconnects are decent (Chord), will take a suggestion on better Power Cable as I’ve never upgraded those.

    Thanks!
     
  9. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    My interconnects and power cables are all Audioquest to try to take advantage of system synergies. I'm not sure if Chord offers power cables, but generally, the more you can afford, the better. Same with the interconnects too, but you'll know better than me whether you feel they're on par with the 2100.

    Obviously, the upside with upgrading your cables is that you can continue to carry those over for future equipment as well. It never hurts to invest in your system's infrastructure.
     
  10. redchiro

    redchiro Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Yikes, I just bought a new 2100 and am hearing exactly what you describe. I opted to not return it ( too late now) in the hopes that with some time, that shouty edge would dissipate. Really notice it with female vocal peaks and you have to turn it down. Discourages turning up to rock out. Was not expecting this sound. Your post has me doubting things will change much.
     
  11. nyrjoe

    nyrjoe Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    With some folks here reporting improvements, perhaps we'll get there? The amp sounds great otherwise, so I'm going to ride it out another week or so and decide. As others suggested run it as much as possible...
     
  12. Helom

    Helom DavidR’s man crush

    Location:
    U.S.
    Is it possible that the amp is merely revealing crappy recordings for what they really are? I’m guessing the 2100 might be more resolving than what you’re used to if it was an upgrade from your previous amp?
     
    Ingres3225 and bluemooze like this.
  13. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    I find that the amp is pretty neutral. Just the slightest bit on the warm side. The only records I found objectionable were some Van Halen remasters that sucked on everything. Usually frequency problems like the ones mentioned are room or speaker issues. The amps measure pretty flat.
     
  14. nyrjoe

    nyrjoe Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    Thanks for your thoughts, spent the better part of this weekend giving the 2100 a good listen with 3 different turntables and walked away even more confused about the 2100 than before. I briefly summarized below what I heard. Since two of the three turntables gave a brighter than neutral result, I’m not sure if the 2100 is passing through the sonic character of these turntables or if I’m hearing the 2100’s sonic character? My speakers are Focal Chorus 826W which are neutral . Would appreciate any input as ordinarily I would visit a local dealer and listen on their equipment but will not be doing that any time soon. I do plan on upgrading my Turntable/cart , but will it lead to a more enjoyable experience (more neutral sound) with the 2100? For what it's worth I listened to various 180 gram remasters of Clapton, Rush, Billy Joel, Norah Jones among others.

    1) Technics Sl-1700 with Nagaoka Mp200, Denon DL110 - Deep bass, Crisp, detailed and forward upper frequencies, vocals very forward (Overall sound on the brighter side of Neutral)

    2) Technics Sl-1600 with Nagaoka Mp200, Denon DL110 - Deep bass, less crisp, less detailed upper frequencies, vocals slightly veiled and projected out less. (Overall sound, slightly warmer than neutral)

    3) Fluance RT85 with Nagaoka Mp200, Denon DL110 – Sounds almost identical to the SL-1700

    Thanks
     
    bluemooze likes this.
  15. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    You have an AHB2? That thing is a work of engineering art. I heard one paired with they’re DAC 3 preamp over some older Dynaudio Audience floor standers and some newer towers. Sounded amazing with the Dynaudios.

    Curious as to how you would compare the overall listening experience to that of your a-s1100.
     
  16. Helom

    Helom DavidR’s man crush

    Location:
    U.S.
    Well, the Yamaha has more character than an AHB2 that’s being driven by a neutral, low-distortion source. The latter is more resolving, with larger soundstage and the general strengths that come with separates. Midbass has more impact with the AHB2, and it’s nice to have a visual indication of whether the amp is clipping. The Yamaha has more saturated tones, not unlike their musical instruments, though sometimes that can impart a sense of sameness to all the music played through it.
     
    russk and rednedtugent like this.
  17. Bert Oz

    Bert Oz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    London
    Hi OC Zed, just spotted this post. My A-S3000 is running the standard power cable that came in the box and QED reference XLR XT40 interconnects. Curious as to which Audioquest power cable and interconnects you went with. Might order some and try them out, always willing to experiment.
     
  18. rednedtugent

    rednedtugent Forum Resident

    Location:
    Funk, Ohio
    I have the A-s2100 and a pair of AHB2 in another system and couldn't agree more with this assessment.
    Well stated.
     
    Helom likes this.
  19. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    Funny you mention Van Halen. Do you recall which albums? I was just streaming Woman and Children First on Qobuz (Hi-Res version) yesterday which sounded pretty damn good.
     
  20. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    I upgraded everything all at once so I haven't spent the time to determine the effects from each specific cable. Here's a rundown of what I have now:

    • Niagara 1200 power supply
    • Monsoon power cables (into the amp, DAC/streamer, and Niagara)
    • Water RCA cables from DAC/streamer to amp
    • Vodka and Forest ethernet cables
    The upgrades weren't cheap, but it was worth it to me for the long-term infrastructure of my system.
     
    Bert Oz likes this.
  21. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    @nyrjoe

    I have found the a-s2100 and 3000 to be pretty neutral and pretty even across the frequency spectrum. From the few measurements I’ve seen they are almost ruler flat between 20hz and 20khz. I’d characterize them as just a touch on the warm side of neutral. Supposedly there is a tiny bit of roll off just before 20Khz if you are running 4 ohm speakers but haven’t really tried that at home. I did notice that it came off a bit warmer overall with the JBL L100 vs Klipsch Forte 3 when comparing the two. So maybe.

    I came to this amp after running tubes for a long time. Personally I think that when you have a really flat amp, unless you been using one prior, people notice that whatever part was tilted up on their last amp is missing and people tend to notice it in different ways. The 2100 is flat. There’s no over or under emphasis. I think they voiced it with a touch more distortion to give it that very slightly warm sound but that’s it. That said if you match it with speakers that aren’t flat or are recessed you’ll notice it. Likewise if you have any suck outs in your room that your last setup somewhat compensated for you’ll notice it. Reasons why home auditions are so important and what component works for me might not for you.

    Not that anyone asked but there’s that. As for phono cartridges and tables. As long as the table and arm are decent I’ve found that 90% of the sound from a vinyl rig is cartridge and preamp, and cartridge is where I like to play around with adding warmth and tone and all those adjectives.

    I’ve found that Nags tend to be more flat and natural sounding than warm or chunky. Especially the MP200 and up. On Technics 1200s I really like the Nags, my favorite for a MM setup is the Dynavector 10x5 Mk2. In fact I really like how it fills out the sound of most records through my 2100s MM stage. If you are noticing recessed mids and brightness with the Nag then maybe look at some fuller more lush sounding cartridges. Basically in my experience the 2100 really lets you here the subtle differences of upstream components. Much more so then my old tube gear and some of its competitors that I auditioned.
     
  22. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    Van Halen II from the 2000 remaster on CD. I’ve found that all the remastered CDs seem to suck.

    Interesting that you mention streaming. I’ve read in a couple of places that the mastering on the 2015 24/192 on HD Tracks is a big improvement over the discs. Haven’t given it a listen though. I’ve got a couple of near mint original LP pressings of Each of their albums that I’ll spin when I’m feeling like some Van Halen. They’re no where near as compressed as the discs.
     
    OC Zed likes this.
  23. UltraDNS

    UltraDNS Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    This guy's review of the Yamaha A-S2100 had a bit to play in my decision to get it:



    And he is a vinyl record guy too, although I doubt that has much to do with the review itself. Just saying.
     
    rednedtugent and OC Zed like this.
  24. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    I definitely agree with you on VH vinyl... snooty audiophiles would never admit it, but those records sound fantastic on the right system. I also agree on the CD versions which is why I've been pleasantly surprised with some of the streaming options that are now available in their catalog. (I recall listening to some streaming disappointments, although I can't remember if any of those were the non-24/192 versions.)
     
    russk likes this.
  25. Bert Oz

    Bert Oz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    London
    Thank you. Will look into these.
     

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