SH Spotlight Newbies getting started playing vinyl, please avoid mistracking & resulting groove damage!!!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Dec 12, 2009.

  1. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Yeah! I was given a big stack of vinyl, some really great stuff, too, only to find that they were all damaged.:realmad:
     
    Sailfree likes this.
  2. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I was given a stack of Rollin' Stones records (without any covers) on deep blue glossy London label, and after washing them really good in the bath tub with shampoo, found that other than some ticks and clicks, they still sounded really good, that was the moment when I realized that my life was saved by rock n' roll.
     
  3. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I don't want to spend the money until I need a new stylus at least, trying to buckle down and conserve. But with the current set up I am getting good results for needle drops anway. I'm ok with what I am doing, not thrilled but do not feel that my drops are bad.
     
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  4. George Blair

    George Blair Senior Member

    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Great post! Warmed my R'nR heart tonight. :righton:
     
  5. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey

    A shower is quicker and cleaner.
     
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  6. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm convinced many people can't/don't for whatever reason. Perhaps a combination of ears and system?

    It drives me nuts...
     
    rvxtm likes this.
  7. Ere

    Ere Senior Member

    Location:
    The Silver Spring
    I asked the basic questions because this thread doesn't define mistracking or, except for Steve's posts 27 & 48, say what it sounds like.
     
  8. Larry Naramore

    Larry Naramore Bonafied Knucklehead

    Location:
    Sun Valley, Calif.
    Hi Steve, great story, favorite part is the evolution of your stereo system. Mine is quite similar.

    As early as 1951 I can remember laying next to a radio changing channels and listening to music.

    In 1953? when I was 5 years old. My mother got me (actually herself :)) a record player and Jimmy Boyd’s' "I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus".

    Around 1972 I bought a garage sale record player and Peter, Paul and Mary’s "Album 1700" and really flipped over the sound.

    Around 1980 after a couple of upgrades I got my Luxman L450 and turntable with Shure V15 lll. Got the bug again when it started to croak and now have an NAD with Dynaudio speakers. I went from a bicycle to a VW to a Chevy and have learn to be content with what I could afford at the time.
     
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Here, this is an example of mistracking on peaks. This is a "Red Columbia" Benny Goodman ALL-STAR recording from 1941 that's worth about 2 bucks today. It was well recorded and has a good live sound. The record must have been played on one of those old two pound tonearms back in the day which just shaved the groove off on the peaks but other than the mistracking problem it sounds great. Probably recorded with one mic just like the picture I posted in the Charlie Christian thread.

    The damage you hear on the record was done in the 1940's but you can hear it on the peaks as the record is being played back. (Also a good way to get you to listen to something that ain't RUSH).

    Charlie Christian's solo is so dynamic that it caused the early tonearm to mistrack and shave the groove. Same for a Basie piano "clunk" and the sax, etc. I think Charlie was recorded in 1941 with more dynamic range than a Grant Green RVG recording from 1962. A testament to those anonymous Columbia engineers of the 1940s..



    Check at 50 seconds, 1:32, 1:56 and so on..
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
    caravan70, MGM, Aftermath and 4 others like this.
  10. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Other than the mistracking, that's a good-sounding recording.
     
  11. Hamhead

    Hamhead The Bear From Delaware

    Cool Garrard in the video, excellent thread.
    Back in the good ol' days at the record store, I had a regular customer I used to trade 78s with who told me about playing records with cactus needles. They dind't tear up the grooves as bad as steel needles, except you had to replace them after each side. I got his 78 collection, most of the records look like glass, shiny mint and unplayed.
     
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  12. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member

    Location:
    usa
    Tank- ya bozz :cool: Yeah I dont think mines mistracking. According to the 78 youtube vid I aint nevah hear anything like that. Thats some buzz on the peaks. BUT is that buzz from the groove damage we are hearing causing the mistracking or is that mistracking alone we r hearing? or does it matter what came fuhyst da chickens or da ehhgs?

    Eithah way I dont have that scarey sound.


    Man a piano sure sounded like a piano on those 78s eh?
     
  13. Jose Jones

    Jose Jones Outstanding Forum Member

    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan
    It's tough to find good help, ain't it? :)
     
  14. ivor

    ivor Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    What's the best tool for correcting mistracking? When I first got my turntable, I used one of the free paper protractors from the internets, but that was a little bit off. When I used the Technics overhang tool that came with my SL-1200, things definitely got better. However, I still hear breakup on some records.

    Someone on this thread gave props to the MFSL Geo Disc -- is that the ultimate solution? Of course it seems expensive for what it is ($50). Are there alternatives?

    If anyone isn't familiar with the Technics overhang tool, KABUSA sells it (on the far right) by itself:
    http://www.kabusa.com/m1200.htm#headshell
     
  15. Manos

    Manos Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ann Arbor, MI, USA
    Thank you, Steve.

    I have one of these mirrored alignment guides from Turntable Basics. It helped eliminate the small amount of inner groove distortion I was hearing with my old Ortofon OM10, and it was an essential tool in setting up my new Shure M97xE.

    I installed the M97xE two days ago, so this thread is timely for me. The sound improvement was not overtly obvious. In fact, the first thing I noticed was the high end muting that others have observed. But I've concluded from further listening that I am simply used to the brighter Ortofon. The deciding factor is the vocals---with the OM10 they have an unnaturally crisp sound, with pronounced "ess's." The strength of the Shure cartridge is its midrange, with natural sounding vocals. I quickly got used to how voices should sound again, more like that balanced quality many of us appreciate in the green label Warner LP's.

    Cartridge alignment is tricky because there is no absolute measurement---you have to use a critical eye and make your best estimate. But the effort will be rewarded with clean sound. The M97xE reduced my sibilant "ess's," and tracks inner grooves smoothly. For $60, it's an incredible bargain.
     
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  16. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I know I've said it before, but it is worth saying again - in case there's any confusion, "perfect" alignment doesn't exist. A properly aligned cartridge on a pivoting arm will only be tangent to the grooves at 2 points. Those 2 points are different for different alignment schemes.
     
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  17. SteveCooks

    SteveCooks Senior Member

    Location:
    Lyon, France
    I use a hip hop style Shure M44-7 and I'm very pleased with it.The bass are boosted and though the cell is maybe a little light and the medium, my system is medium oriented (speakers Rega RS3 and Atoll Amp) so I find it great that way. It's no brainer to fix and it doesn't use the vinyls much.
    Do I miss something with the Shure M97xE ?
     
    McLover likes this.
  18. Spirit Crusher

    Spirit Crusher Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mad Town, WI
    I have an AT120E, which I upgraded to from an old DJ AT cart that tracked at minimum 3g. This one tracks much lighter - 1.4g. I still get some inner groove issues - when the music gets really dense, but much better than the ATP. But these are modern metal records that are heavily compressed. Anyway, the stylus is 0.3 x 0.7 Nude Elliptical Stylus. Am I wasting my time and records?
     
  19. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    Good point Luke. Then again perfection in general to me is a goal that we never really reach, like a limit in math. We can approach it but the closer we get the more ellusive it seems to get.

    Then again I don't generally believe in any absolutes like never, always, etc.
     
  20. trevaaar

    trevaaar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    This is a pretty big deal with the entry-level tables from Pro-Ject and Rega. When I bought my Rega P1 it came with an Ortofon OM5E cartridge which I immediately noticed sounded awful from 2/3 into a record until the end. Replacing the stylus on it with one from a Digitrac 200NE did absolute wonders and while it's not perfect IGD only plagues me on a few records instead of all of them.
     
  21. Ere

    Ere Senior Member

    Location:
    The Silver Spring
    In a very special cross-over thread event, mis-tracking exampled with a great Charlie Christian solo. Thanks :righton:

    Interesting that cutting itself could apparently contribute to the mistracking and damage. So, an otherwise correctly set-up cartridge could reproduce the artifact(s) later on?

    ... slightly off-topic, but this makes me seriously consider having KAB mod. my 1200 to play 78s.
     
    McLover likes this.
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Ere,

    Thank you for that BENNY GOODMAN/CHARLIE CHRISTIAN U-Toob link by the way. When I clicked on it and enjoyed the record I realized that the mistracking would be perfect for THIS thread!

    By the way, my copy of that Red Columbia record (bought at Jazz Man Records for one quarter in 1979) was never played (until I got it) and has NO mistracking issues. It was cut (in 1941) perfectly, dynamic and lifelike. I guess no 1941 turntable could track it correctly. By 1947 or so the major labels were compressing their dynamic range so this problem would go away.
     
    McLover likes this.
  23. gilbert green

    gilbert green Forum Resident


    O yes, this has happened to me. Not on my current set up, though. So, is my elliptical stylus OK, or...?
     
  24. gilbert green

    gilbert green Forum Resident

    Many of my 45s sound like this...I mean, they're 40 years old, played dozens of times by teenagers, etc. but, despite the distortion, pops, etc. most of them still sound great!
     
  25. Ere

    Ere Senior Member

    Location:
    The Silver Spring
    As I begin to wend my way to finding excellent fidelity in this kind of great music, wary of spending good money on pressings with excess echo or fake stereo or N/R etc., it's making more and more sense to go straight back to the beginning: 78s and mono.

    I love this place!
     

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