I understand what you're saying. And it's true that, if being considered out of context, Caves lyrics can sometimes tread on the trite (although I think this has always been the case with Cave). But I would remind that even the tritest lyric can be deeply informed by performance. So I'm less inclined to ping Cave (or any lyricist), in this regard. But in defense of "Ghosteen" (which I maintain is Cave's best work, and I'll happily pull from the Quietus review, which featured lyrics that I noticed as well, and I think is spot-on). This: “I lay in the forest amongst the butterflies and the fireflies And the burning horses and the flaming trees As a spiral of children climb up to the sun.” It is a remarkable image. And this: “Mama bear holds the remote, papa bear he just floats And baby bear, he has gone to the moon in a boat, on a boat.” Even without context this wonderful play on tread worn imagery and evokes something far sadder, if utterly strange. And I find this image devastating.. "And the little white shape dancing at the end of the hall Is just a wish that time can't dissolve at all,” On "Ghosteen" Cave is singing about something very specific. We know this because the artist has been very clear about his intent. The terms of death and the confounding beauty of its aftermath is something I haven't heard any artist examine as eloquently as Cave does with "Ghosteen". He has reached for something almost inexplicable and has captured it. I have no interest in convincing you of liking something, and I do appreciate your comment. But, I wonder if you're throwing the proverbial baby out with the bathwater?
In a world of Ed Sheeran, Chris Martin and Keane, I'm not going to call Nick Cave trite. Not even slightly.
Yup I think you hit it on the head. I am always drawn to groove over vocals. Vocals are normally an afterthought in my musical listening.
I've listened to all of Ghosteen several times now, and my belief in its brilliance only grows stronger.
Whether you see a resemblance or not, the lyrics reminded me of this poem straight away. I don't recall saying that I thought the line to be brilliant. You clearly read in to that, on your own. I'm not so sure that E.E. Cumming's poem is "brilliant" either. It just reminds me of it. I don't know Leo Sayer's More Than I Can Say. Post some lyrics of his that remind you of Nick Cave's lyrics, please.
Well said. The original links between Cummings and Larkin and Cave were purely about voice and style and use of imagery - there was no comment on quality, as such. In any case, how do we define greatness or brilliance? Suggesting that something has to be 100% original in order to qualify as "brilliant" or "great" basically rules almost everything out, as there's nothing unique out there. Expecting a poet or lyricist to devise fresh imagery, never used in any way by any writer before, is daft... but I'd argue that Cave gets close, at times. However, if there is eloquence, and a poetic voice, and a certain beauty in what's being said and how it's articulated, then that interests me. I hear these qualities in abundance in Cave's work. Not though, Leo Sayer's - funnily enough.
Hey, Dylan won the Nobel Prize for Literature and he's an admittedly one of the biggest thieves that exists. Doesn't make his work any less great, to me. I don't think Nick stole any of these lines. I just think, like any artist he's influenced, on some level, by what he's read, listening to or events in his life. As I said, I really don't even know who Leo Sayer is. I have a faint memory of a song he sang that was popular when I was a kid. But I couldn't tell you what it was. Anyhow, I think the comparison is most likely bullsh!t. But, prove me wrong.
Feels like there are some folks who simply don't like what Cave has done artistically in the past half a dozen years or so, and they're now at the point of finding spurious and nonsensical reasons to justify their position, because they ultimately want Loverman and Cannibal's Hymn again. Hence we are getting stuff about the absence of proper singing and actual melodies. It's even moved onto the surprising suggestion that the lyrics are no good now.
I like some Leo Sayer songs, but I can guarantee none of the lyrics are anything like Cave's lol More Than I can Say Whoa whoa yea yea (pronounced yay yay) I love you more than I can say I love you twice as much tomorrow whoa whoa Love you more than I can say Just off the top of my head
For the record, I think this is probably Sayer's best song. Giving It All Away - 1974 - from probably his best album Just A Boy. His biggest hit was Long Tall Glasses I think ("you know I can't dance, you know I can't dance") Off the Just a Boy album there are also the tracks the Show Must Go On and One Man Band. I reckon they're great, but sort of a Music Hall type, show kind of songs, that really aren't everyone's cup of tea. His biggest hits aside from Long Tall Glasses were generally love songs, and I think the implication in the post about the lyrics was that Nick is writing softer lyrics.... but there is absolutely no comparison in style, and a lot of Sayers later music is written by others. Songs best known Moonlighting You Make Me Feel Like Dancing How Much Love Thunder In My Heart More Than I Can Say
I mean, they both write in English. I’m sure they use some of the same words. In fact I’d go so far as to say that I’m sure you could take certain,Nick Cave line from almost any of his records and compare it to Various artists, on paper. But Nick’s phrasing and delivery is a part of the total.
HBO have LIVE in Copenhagen live video. Excellent gig. I saw 15-20 times. Best live Nick Cave ever. I don’t know why NC never realeses this gig. 5-6 songs on lp, Deezer &. This is best ever NC gig i ever saw New album : just ok
I am a latecomer to Cave and the Seeds so I have approached the albums in more or less random order and without paying attention to the various permutations of Seeds. I have no opinion on who should be playing on a Seeds record (apart from Nick) and I don't think I need to hear any particular style - there's quite a lot of different styles across the albums I've heard. Nick's lyrics are normally pretty good by rock standards (note: I don't know anything about poetry) an although I am usually not particularly bothered what inspired him to write the lyrics, if he wants to tell us that's fine. After a couple of listenings under less than ideal conditions, I am really enjoying Ghosteen. It's very atmospheric both lyrically and musically. I think it will grow on me as I start listening properly to the lyrics and start picking out the musical detail. For that I'll probably need to blast it when no-one is home or use headphones (but not on a train this time).
I suspect this has something substantial to do with matters. I was aware of Cave in the mid-nineties, but for reasons I don't recall or understand, I didn't pay full attention to him until No More Shall We Part. Not long after that, I ended up getting into a serious relationship and my son soon followed, so I sort of lost sight of music in general, for a while, though at some point during that time I bought the Best Of compilation. I didn't buy Abattoir Blues until 2008/2009, but I really liked it. I also really liked Push The Sky Away, which I probably first heard within a year of its release. It was only after Skeleton Tree that I started really getting massively into Nick Cave, especially as this coincided with a pretty traumatic period in my life. Few other artists reached the same places that Cave could reach. I bought the older albums, Tender Prey, Let Love In, Henry's Dream, etc, in a fairly random order. As JumpinJimF said, this meant that the personnel involved in the Bad Seeds didn't really interest or bother me, and I also didn't feel 'alienated' by any changes in artistic direction. While I think he has done superb work throughout his career, I think the recent trilogy of albums is the artistic equal, at least, of anything he's previously recorded.
Oh, and despite my love of Cave's recent work (which I hold to be superb) Straight to You, Are You The One I've Been Waiting For? and Ain't Gonna Rain Anymore are among my favourite Cave compositions.
And I tend to agree with you. I've had a real tough time getting into his latest releases. I'm a huge, long time fan, but they just don't draw me in and after multiple spins trying to find something that I really like I'm more often than not disappointed.
I have been following NC since Henry's Dream came out = a long time. A big fan to say the lease. At his best he's captivating, chilling, with moments of exquisite beauty, at his worst he can get boring despite lyrical brilliance. Let's face it, this album falls into the boring category. He has completely abandoned the guitar, and all we get is some keyboards and Ellis's droning violin. I'm OK with it, but not for an entire album. I've listened to it twice and will give it a few more, but basically I'm bored.
I have been listening to Cave for 30 years. This might be his best album. I am glad he continues to evolve and not rehash the past
I do get how people can find this album boring. I personally don’t. But understand it. To be honest, Before Ghosteen was released, I had a feeling that this album was going to be incredibly minimal as far as instrumentation goes. I kind of thought this because of what he’s currently, seemingly, obsessed with, which is connecting with his audience on a very intimate, personal level, and sitting at a piano, playing his songs, raw, solo. I’ve been to three of these conversation gigs that he’s doing. Two, last year, when he first started doing them and one, begrudgingly, last month. I find them weird and uncomfortable. Just not my thing. Although, admittedly, the one I attended last month was much less uncomfortable than the two last year. Anyhow, after the gig, here in New York, las month, I sort of figured that this is what he’s now in to. Warren, for recording purposes can work with Nick to produce this very minimal, almost solo, sound, which I believe Nick is going for. And this isn’t for everybody, clearly. I really do see how people can find it tiring. Personally, I like it, at least on Ghosteen. I’ve actually really come to love Ghosteen. We’ll see how it ages. But this album, more than any past NC&TBS albums, I can understand not liking. In fact, I’m sort of surprised it’s getting the positive reviews from fans and the media, that it is.
All that said, I feel like I've had this conversation for every NC&TBS release, since Tender Prey. When that came out, friends of mine thought it sounded too slick. People were pissed off at The Good Son. Some people really were baffled by Henry's Dream. But at that point, his fan base was pretty small, because the original base had lost interest. He gained fans with Let Love In. Lost some at Boatman's Call and at the same time, gained a ton. And then the infamous Nocturama was released and tons of people jumped ship. I think he gained a whole new set of fans with DLD and PTSA. I guess Nick Cave is just one of those artists that people get so emotionally involved in that they feel genuinely disappointed and almost hurt, if he doesn't produce an album that they expected. And he's also one of those artists that you really can't pigeonhole. So, expecting him to do anything is just setting yourself up for disappointment. But if you choose to stay on the ride, it can be pretty wild, exciting and, for me, ultimately satisfying.
