OJC vinyl reissue question

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by vinyltimm, Mar 4, 2011.

  1. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    One more thing: I've noticed these newer OJCs can seemingly be pressed anywhere. I've had them pressed at Rainbo, RTI, United, and even QRP.

    Also, watch out for European public domain bootlegs/counterfeits of these titles on labels like Dolchess, Doxy, and WaxTime. Allthough the Waxtime/Jazz Wax 180 releases usually have the black/white/red sticker on the front and are fairly easily identified, the Dolchess and Doxy counterfeits can be harder to spot if you aren't careful.

    I've seen them in the stacks right next to legit Concord/OJC pressings at stores and it seems they are ripping off the more popular OJC titles. You have to look at the back cover for "Dolchess" or "Doxy" in small print. I think a lot of stores carry them because they don't know any better and many times they are getting them from the same big one-stop type distributors that they get legit Concord stuff from.
     
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  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Can't believe I'm saying this but Tom Port at Better Records at one time had a giant inventory of the old OJC jazz LPs. I got a bunch from him for not much. I would expect he has raised his prices a bit (!) but it's worth a shot. Tell him I sent you.

    The OJC LPs are 99.9% analog cut, no matter what you may have heard. Can't say anything about what came after though. Look for the 1980s-90s versions, your best bet, not "rare" not collectable, just the cheapest, all-analog vinyl you can buy of this stuff.. I still have a bunch, sometimes different mastering style than the OJC CD's (less or more live echo on the Contemporary, etc.)
     
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  3. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I've been very pleased with the older OJCs I've picked up. Most of them I've bought used in excellent condition for between $7-15, with the majority of them being around $10. I'll take your word for it that most of the old ones are all analog.

    Just for kicks I searched through the Better Records online catalog for OJCs. He has a drop down selector for both the Original Jazz and Blues classics. The only thing that came up were two LPs, one each by Coleman Hawkins ($169.99) and John Coltrane ($69.99). I don't know what this guy is smoking (A cocktail of crack cocaine and PCP?) but let's just say I'll pass.

    One more thing: one of the old, used OJCs I recently picked up is a Jon Eardley LP from 1990 called "from Hollywood to New York" which is part of the OJC "Limited Edition Series". On the back of the LP it clearly states that it was "digitally remastered by Phil De Lancie". I don't know if this was just copied from the CD tray card or if the LP was in fact cut from a digital source back in 1990, but it sounds great. I'm guessing this is one of the exceptions to the majority of old OJCs.
     
  4. senseabove

    senseabove Forum Resident

    So, I picked up a copy of Thelonious Monk Quartet Plus Two at the Blackhawk today. It's in an OJC sleeve with the number on the back in the top right, and it has all the late 80s OJC hallmarks—barcode, "Remastered 1987 by Phil De Lancie", etc. S'fine. I've several with those marks that sound fantastic.

    But it caught my—well, hands, because it felt heavier. So I pull it out of the rack, and it may not be 180g, but it's not the usual lightweight OJC pressing...

    So I take a peek at the deadwax:
    RLP12-11710-A KPG@ATM 1725.1(3)

    :confused:

    Kevin Gray's initials and, IIRC, an RTI plate number? What is this hybrid beast? Did someone accidentally stick an AP Tenor Sessions copy in an OJC sleeve?

    FWIW, this seems to be from a large collection that was unceremoniously dumped by a clueless relative at my local Half-Price Books, whose buyer is also clueless when it comes to jazz vinyl (well, vinyl in general—e.g. $20 Endless Summer—but jazz vinyl especially—e.g. $50 OJCs, because I guess they think they're original Prestiges?). I had actually passed over this one several times, since it was priced ridiculously, but they finally cut the prices on the remainders of this collection that hadn't sold, and that coupled with a coupon brought it down to a reasonable price for an OJC.

    But did KG do some OJC masterings at some point? Or is this another situation like the two Rollins OJCs where another release's plates were re-used? What's going on here?
     
  5. marmil

    marmil It's such a long story...

    If you really want to make yourselves crazy, go to newburycomics.com and look at their Jazz section. It's mostly OJC colored vinyl. I have a few of them and, after reading this thread, the matrix info is all over the place. There's Steve Hoffmans, Phil DeLancies, George Horns, and just about every variation that's been listed in this thread. Sound is usually very good, some not so great. It's a crapshoot, but their only doing runs of 500-600 of each title. Most are $19.99. Do what you will w/ this info.
     
  6. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I think Concord is at the point where they just subcontract these newer OJCs pressings (whether they are Newbury or plain black LPs) to whatever plant has capacity at the time. The new ones are pressed at at least four different plants, and I think some of these plants are just using whatever metalwork they might have sitting around instead of going through the trouble of having a new lacquer cut and new mother/father plates made. A lot of the newer Concord OJCs in stores ARE new cuts though, so as mentioned before in this thread, don't get your hopes up about them being something else when you buy those.

    The only Newbury OJCs I have are Saxophone Colossus and Tenor Madness, both of those being old DCC cuts.

    I crosschecked a lot of other Newbury OJC releases with Discogs awhile ago and most of those appear to be newer cuts, but we all know how often Discogs is wrong and/or incomplete w/r/t matrix info when it comes to jazz records.

     
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  7. anmtspace

    anmtspace Well-Known Member

    In Feb 2016 Vinylsolutions posted this:

    "I think this is the image you are referring to? Also from a 1986 OJC (Funky).
    I wrote to Phil Delancie to ask about this, he replied:

    I started in Jan of 1986, at which point the mastering engineers were myself (replacing Gary Hobish) and George Horn.

    I haven't cut a disc since 1999, so a lot of the details are now fuzzy. Unfortunately I don't remember making a scribe of that kind, nor do those initials ring a bell. Sorry I can't be of more help. The person who would possibly know would be George Horn"


    Can you write to Phil De Lancie again and ask him if the mastering he did for the OJCs that bear his name on the LP cover from 1986 onwards were analogue or digital, confirm that the 'remaster by Phil' was just the artwork used on the CD cover and whether the mastering was done just for the CDs or for the LPs too. It may be that he can give exact information regarding the late 80s OJCs that have the barcode, year date on the spine and his name on the back cover and with what Steve Hoffman tells us will
    nail down this issue for us.
     
  8. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    I picked up a few new OJC titles/reissues recently: Monk Plays Ellington, Mingus at the Bohemia and Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section. All 3 were pressed by RTI and were relatively clean pressings but not perfect. The records sounded pretty good. I assume they were each mastered from digital sources. If I had to choose between new or old, I'd go with the original OJC pressings. The treble and bass are more goosed on the newer pressings.
     
  9. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Do you have any of these on older OJC pressings, or are you just comparing the general sound of the newer OJCs vs. the old ones?

    I have an old Monk Plays Ellington but haven't heard the latest pressing. I think someone here compared those two at some point. I do have the Mingus at Bohemia in the newer pressing and agree it sounds good but I don't have anything else to compare it to. My copy of that one is slightly dished but flattens out with a record weight easily.

    The only OJC where I have both old and new pressings is Chet Baker - Chet. The new one has a small digital glitch on it as mentioned here but sounds fine compared to the old 80s OJC otherwise.
     
  10. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    I have original OJC pressings of the LPs that I cited. I prefer the SQ of the older pressings, as they sound more natural, with better mid-range. I do like the detail on the newer pressings though.
     
  11. Robz64

    Robz64 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    new york
    Are all you guys using a Mono cart, if not stop complaining. I'm using a Zero mono cart and my new OJC-291 Saxophone Colossus sounds great. Great detail, bottom end detail is crisp. Max's drum solo's sound clear and the ting on the cymbals are outstanding and fade out beautifully. I have an original OJC-006 " The New Miles Davis Quintet" with "GH" stamp, which is fine as well.
     
  12. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Saxophone Colossus does sound great. A big part of that has to do with the fact that it was made with older mother plates (cut by our host and Kevin Gray), thus it really has nothing to do with newer OJC pressings made under the auspices of Concord Music Group. A mono cart, while nice, isn't required to enjoy these records either.
     
  13. e.s.

    e.s. Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    Who's complaining?
     
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  14. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    Who's complaining? V2
     
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  15. Robz64

    Robz64 Well-Known Member

    Location:
    new york
    Also realize the quality of every original recording even if pressed from OJC will be different. Certain instruments on these older original recordings were emphasized more than the others as well. Example mic placements etc.. Too much analysis on the OJC vinyl might drive a person mad. If your using a good cart and stylis you should hear the details of that recording. The comments made are subjective to that persons ear. So when one person makes a comment some, not all people take this as something might be wrong with the pressing. Yes, there are very bad recording and pressing. I believe all of us no matter what our ears recognize can separate a bad recording from a good one. The new OJC are very nice quality and are well made. My two cents.
     
  16. e.s.

    e.s. Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I haven't picked up many of the newer OJCs, but generally speaking, if I see an OJC release from the '80s or early '90s, I grab it. I've actually had pretty good luck finding sealed OJC old stock, especially when I was in the Bay Area.

    It would be nice to know which of the current OJC reissues are using older parts.
     
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  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Yeah it would. Unfortunately the info isn't exactly easy to come by. Discogs is wildly incomplete and inaccurate on OJC stuff. For the newer OJCs, I would just assume a new lacquer cut unless someone posts matrix info in this forum to the contrary. The only two I know of offhand that use old metalwork are the two Sonny Rollins' albums Tenor Madness and Saxophone Colossus.
     
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  18. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Who's complaining? V3
     
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  19. 2xUeL

    2xUeL Forum Philosopher

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    The only reason I'm suspicious of newer OJC pressings is because of the (completely hypothetical and idealized) preference for all-analog pressings and for fear that more modern pressings were created under lower quality control at the factory and perhaps use inferior materials. That being said, old or new, most OJCs I've ever heard sound awesome.

    Regarding mono carts, if a record is super minty, listening in stereo should sound pretty darn close to listening in mono. That being said I always sum when listening to mono records.
     
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  20. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    There is no consistency with the new pressings like I said before. This is because they could be pressed at 3 different plants or more, with lacquers cut by a variety of engineering houses depending on what Concord felt like doing w/r/t that particular batch/title. Sources on the new ones are definitely digital from everything I've seen w/r/t who mastered them. Some of these engineers that do the new ones don't even regularly cut from tape, if they do at all.

    In general, between these issues and the recent trend of repressing old OJC CDs as thinly disguised CD-Rs, I'm not too happy with the way Concord is handling the OJC catalog. They could be doing things a lot better IMHO.
     
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  21. MichaelXX2

    MichaelXX2 Dictator perpetuo

    Location:
    United States
    Portrait In Jazz

    I recently bought this record here. The high-pitched whine is present here, and the music itself sounds very nice. Does anyone know if this is full analog or digital? I can't find hardly any information on these OJC Bill Evans records. The deadwax on side one reads "OJC-088 A1 RE6."

    I think I'll just stick to the CDs...

    EDIT: Interestingly enough, the deadwax matches this discogs listing here:

    Bill Evans Trio* - Portrait In Jazz

    Maybe this one is using old stampers!
     
  22. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I doubt that is old metalwork for two reasons:

    1) Usually anything with the RE is a newer cut, but there are some exceptions IIRC.

    2) Discogs is notoriously unreliable when it comes to jazz deadwax where records were pressed and repressed and reissued several times under the same label with different lacquer or dmm cuts. A lot of the OJC deadwax numbers are flat out wrong, because people just enter the info for the latest pressing (usually a newer cut) under the old 80s OJC catalog numbers. That is likely what happened here.
     
  23. MichaelXX2

    MichaelXX2 Dictator perpetuo

    Location:
    United States
    The deadwax on the record I bought from that Soundstage Direct listing matches the 80s deadwax info, not the other way around.
     
  24. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    What I am saying is that the Discogs info is probably wrong.
     
  25. MichaelXX2

    MichaelXX2 Dictator perpetuo

    Location:
    United States
    My spine says "copyright 1983" on the outside, so it's possible that this listing is entirely wrong, and thinks this recent pressing was made in 1983. Arrgh! Why don't reissue labels feel like they can alter the sleeves with updated copyright information? It makes things so confusing.
     
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