OJC vs. AP SACD for the following JAZZ titles...

I have a Japanese version of Sunday at the Village Vanguard that sounds great. Don't have the serial numbers on immediately on hand, but based on resesarch I think it was from around 1986. There are also no bonus tracks on it.Was not a two-fer. The writing on the spine and booklet is Japanese, so I have no idea who mastered it.

If I recall the sound stage is not as wide. I really like this version. Seems really warm.

 

I agree with you about the AP Waltz for Debby. I can't imagine this sounding any better.

Does anyone know of a good online source for the OJCs?

 

Once again I have to ask, what was the reverb like on the original LP versions? I have been told by a record collector that most of these sessions had noticeable reverb on the original LPs. I can't say this because I've never heard them. I don't know why it was added to the PCM master for the SACDs but it could be that the engineer was trying to duplicate the sound of those LPs.

As much as I dig hearing the master tapes unfutzed with, there is a line of thinking amongst some engineers and fans that the CD should sound like the original LP.

The advertising blurbs for Blue Note's RVG CDs are that these discs are supposed duplicate what RVG heard in the recording studio when they were recorded. Obviously, this requires some tweaks to the master. One of the guys I talk to owns the entire Blue Note catalog on original LPs and he says these CDs are an abomination. They sound nothing like the music Alfred Lion intended us to hear. Who is right? Blue Note for issuing this modified version or the collector who believes any release should mimic the LP's sound?

 

Yes, there is a significant proportion of fans who think like that and who prefer "Kind of Blue" at the wrong speed, mono LPs of sessions that were recorded in true stereo, or CDs without bonus tracks that replicate the original LP release.

But in my view this philosophy puts the product (the LP) over the actual musical performance as recorded.

Added reverb may be an integral part of the sound of an album like "Bitches brew" (or "Ascenseur pour l'échafaud"!), but not "Way out west".

 

Not me Steve, but there are those that think this way. I'm with you on this 100%. I do think that these SACDs would be better without the reverb.

However, I also don't think that there is that much reverb on them. I A/B'ed several of them with a few friends and we all agreed that the SACD beat out the OJC CD hands down. If the reverb ruins it for you, I can understand the recommendation for the OJC, but to my ears, the SACDs sound great. I always recommend them as examples of great sounding Jazz SACDs.

The thing that I always wondered about these SACDs is why the heck you didn't do them. APO used your services for the CCR SACDs right around the same time so it's not like you weren't working with them. Why didn't they contract you for these few extra titles? Can you say? Were you too expensive?

Kevin
Kevin

 

This may be the VDJ pressing referenced above? I have John Coltrane's 'Coltrane' album on this label and it sounds great to me. Matter of fact, I scored Waltz and Vanguard on the same label. When I get a chance, I'll do a shootout between the VDJ, the AP gold CD and the tracks on the Riverside box...

Steve, what are your thoughts on that gold AP disc, BTW?

Thanks!

 

Well, I do know that when comparing a minty original Point of Departure that I was lucky to stumble across years ago, to the RVG CD, I was equally apalled. The RVG sounds so tweaked and harsh it's just laughable. I don't care what it sounded like in the studio - it sure didn't sound like what I hear on the CD!

I generally don't like revisionism either; most of the time the initial decisions/instincts will be right. I do like to hear how it was intended to be heard by the record-buying public when it came out, the versions that became legendary. So if the original Waltz for Debby had reverb, then I don't mind a little reverb on the SACD (it has to be done right, of course). Of course, with SACDs the multiple layers means you could even have one dry and one wet version on the same disc. Or stereo, and mono on the 5.1 layer, etc... But I'm digressing.

 

Many of my OJCs are Japanese discs for the Japanese market made before the titles were available in the States. Anyone know if these are digitally identical to the later US ones? I have some of both but of course no duplicates of the same title.

 

I only have one early japanese release: Mal Waldron - Mal 4 (Victor VDJ-1545) from 1987. The mastering credits say:

The OJC CD was mastered at Fantasy Studios in 1994 by Phil de Lancie.

 

Do you mean the 1987 mastering by Tarantino? OJCCD-210? With the channels reversed?

 

As for Waltz for Debby , there is a 3rd option: Riverside SACD.

I did a quick A/B with "My Foolish Heart"
between 1987's OJC CD and the Riverside SACD,
redbook layer against redbook cd...

In my amateur's vocabulary, I would say:

- the bass sounds fuller and goes deeper in the SACD (i repeat: redbook layer)
- the piano sounds a lot "softer" in the SACD (is it added reverb? i guess so)
- there is a drop-out around 4:40 in the SACD.

I am not one of the lucky owner of one of the Analogue productions' 45rpm: is there a drop-out there too???

Overall, I prefer the OJC, even though I have to switch my cables to hear the piano in the right channel, like it should be.

 

Isn't that one of those Hong Kong SACDs where the tapes used are of dubious origin? It doesn't look like any SACD I've seen from Fantasy and they issued quite a few of them.

 

I'd really be interested to hear what you find. The VDJ CD was my introduction to Debby. I've got the SACD and have been meaning to A-to-B them for ages, but just haven't been able to find the time. (One-year-olds will do that to you )

Geoff

 

I hear ya! The disc arrived yesterday, so I should be able to sit down at some point this weekend...

 

Yeah, it doesn't even have the DSD logo. I've made the mistake of buying a few that aren't DSD, and they really arent worth it, especially for multichannel.

The Analogue Productions Waltz for Debby is very good. Never heard the OJC, and if it sounds better, then I need to get it ASAP.

 

If I were you, I'd sit down and spend more time with the AP SACD first. You need to know how satisfied you are with what you have first before trying another one. In most cases, you'll likely find some aspects you're not totally satisfied with. Then, you'll more easily see if OJC is better in those aspects. (You'd surely find some faults with OJC, too ... but that's how things are with dealing with different masterings.)

 

Yes they are different. I prefer the SACD of Waltz myself, but both have their strengths and weaknesses. Too bad DCC didn't do that one (Steve and Kevin's 45 is tops).

 

I found it in a used bin today, for 9.50$.
It does sound great. Very happy to know that I have most of the OJC of this list.
Out of curiosity: there is a big loss of resolution at the 2 minutes mark during Moritat. It lasts about 30 sec.
Is the problem there in all digital versions?

 

Hmmm... I don't notice this on the K2 version.

 

Although I haven't heard the original OJC release of Chet (a situation that I will now remedy), I was still surprised that our host picked it over the AP SACD, which I do own and really love. That remastering was done by Doug Sax using tubes, and then the analog-to-DSD transfer was handled through Ed Meitner electronics to create the SACD layer. And to my ears, the sound of the SACD definitely reflects the level of talent behind it. Never listened to the redbook layer, where the A/D conversion was done through different electronics, so my comments may or may not apply to it. I also own the AP Gold CD of this title, but the SACD just kills it.

 

All the AP SACD mastered by Douug Sax were made that way, but some of them are sub-par, for reasons not related to the mastering equipment.

Sonny Rollins "Way out west" and Art Pepper "Meets the rythm section" have added reverb (either present on the tapes Sax used or added by him during the mastering), which sounds pretty bad after you heard a version without reverb.

I haven't done a comparison on the Chet album.

 

If you have the money and like SACD, you should try some of the japanese Universal single layer SACDs from the original list in this thread. They bring you the feeling of listening to analogue tapes to a new level, from a digital source.

 

I'm already there, Espen! In fact, the Way Out West SHM-SACD just might be my favorite and best-sounding SACD in my collection. Also loving Bill Evans in this format, Sonny Rollins, some Coltrane titles and Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section.

Problem is (as with all formats), not all the SHM-SACD are great and worth $60 a pop... so I'm hesitant to invest unless I read consistent rave reviews about a particular title. Anything else you'd suggest?