Old US Pressing of ‘Beggar's Banquet’ at Correct Speed

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Esszet, Jul 12, 2012.

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  1. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Milwaukee, WI
    No, it doesn't.
    Tommyboy and marcb like this.
  2. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    Thanks to lukpac´s laconic "No, it doesn´t." - I of course had to "go back to the study chamber " . . . . .

    Up till now, I have used an A / B comparison method, - switching from one source to the other, - but this let me to do some
    "simultaneously playing" - ( which from experience is difficult in praxis, - starting two devices at exactly the same time ) -
    and the A / B-method let me to the conclusion, that all (with the exception of "Rolled Gold, vinyl") versions of
    "Sympathy For The Devil" runs at the same speed.

    I now realize , - from simultaneously playing, - that the 2002 DSD version of SFTD runs slightly faster than the 1984 CD, -
    almost not audible from an A/B, - but detectable with simultaneous playing.

    The strange thing is, - that not all pre-2002 CD-releases of SFTD are identical.
    The version on "Singles Collection - The London Years" 1989 is very close to the 2002 release, - and slightly faster than the 1984 CD-release.

    We are talking very subtile differences - and not anything that is "noticeably" different !

    Concerning the "Beggars Banquet" - "correct speed" - I don´t have a defined meaning - or theory - yet, -
    but my "feeling" is, - that Glyn Johns deliberately slowed down some of the songs, - to create a certain atmosphere -
    and not due to some "technical error" - !
  3. lil.fred

    lil.fred Señor Sock

    The East Bay
    Only if true.
  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Milwaukee, WI
    Sympathy For The Devil:

    That's incorrect. The 2002 is noticeably faster than either the original 1984 CD or the 1989 Singles Collection. The 1984 CD and 1989 Singles Collection are less than a tenth of a second different in length. On the other hand, the 2002 CD is over 9 seconds shorter than either of those releases.

    Please see above.

    If he had done that, he likely would have done so at the mixing stage. But he didn't.
    stef1205, marcb and Arkoffs like this.
  5. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    Any theory on why "Prodigal Son" and "Factory Girl" runs faster on the 1984 CD than the 1968 Decca vinyls ?
    (confirmed by simultaneous playing)
    - "Street Fighting Man" and "No Expectations" does too, - but that is more "understandable" - as they seems to be
    identical to the 1968 single release.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  6. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    A little OT, - but never the less closely connected :
    In 1968 "Street Fighting Man" was released on a Mono-Orange-Swirl-Promo 7", - holding a version with an alternate vocal.
    This was released on the "Singles Collection, - The London Years" 2002 - but here it runs faster than the original 7" !
    This fact makes me very suspicious concerning the so called "correct" speed on the 2002 releases of all the "Beggars Banquet" - material-!

    The Mono-Promo was an individual product - and could not have been affected by any "technical error" -
    so why is it running faster on the 2002 - release ?
  7. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Milwaukee, WI
    Does your turntable have problems? This 45 on YouTube runs very close to the speed of the 2002 Singles Collection:

    The mono box also runs at about the same speed.
  8. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    I will have to investigate if my 45-speed has problems. It´s an old tractor, - Thorens TD 318 . . .
    -but my Stereo-promo 7" plays at exactly the same speed as the CD-releases.

    It was a surprise to me, that the Blue-Swirl 7" holds this version, - with the alternate vocal, -
    and I agree that it is identical to the 2002-SC release.
  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Milwaukee, WI
    Stereo promo? I’m not aware of such a thing, but if it’s the stereo mix, no wonder it doesn’t run at the same speed.
  10. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    "Street Fighting Man" - Stereo was released on a (rare) 7" Orange Swirl Promo, London 45-909-DJ - and runs at exactly the same speed as the 1984-BB CD release, -
    (which is why I presumed that my 45-speed was correct, - but I will have it stroboscopically confirmed) -
    and which is slightly faster than the BB-Decca vinyl release.
    The 2002 release of BB runs "faster" again, (which simultaneous playing proved, - I couldn´t hear it from A/B listening) - leaving us with 3 different speeds of SFM,
    the 1968 BB-Decca Vinyl, / the 1968 7" vinyl promo- 1984 BB-CD / and the 2002 DSD CD.

    I will come back with comments on the Mono-release, - when further investigated, -
    as it certainly is a possibility, that the Orange Swirl Promo, - and the Blue Swirl release has
    differences, - such as for instance speed . . . .
    Several Orange Swirl Promos differs from the Blue Swirls, - but normally it is editing -
    ("Jumpin´Jack Flash" and "We Love You") - making the songs shorter . . .
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  11. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm still not sure what you're talking about. You were just talking about a mono promo, and the 45 mix on Singles Collection:

    As I pointed out, Singles Collection runs at about the same speed as the mono 45. A stereo 45 would be the same mix as the LP.
  12. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    SFM was released on two different Orange Swirl 7" Promos.

    One in Mono (London 45-909) and one in Stereo (London 45-909-DJ)

    The Mono mix was then released on the Blue Swirl 7" (which is new to me, - I thought it held the Stereo version) - but running slightly faster.
    This version is identical to the 2002-SC release.

    The Stereo Orange Swirl 7" runs faster than the BB-Decca vinyl, and is identical to the 1984 BB CD-release, - the 2002 BB-CD runs even faster.
  13. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    The "correct" speed of the "Beggars Banquet" material is quite a mess.
    I´ve looked a little deeper into "No Expectations" - cross playing it all simultaneously -

    The 1984 BB-CD release runs faster than that 1968 BB-Decca vinyl, -
    but the 1968 Orange Swirl 7" Stereo Promo runs faster than the 1984 BB-CD ! !

    - and then the 2002 releases (BB - More Hot Rocks - SC-The London Years - all identical) - are even faster.

    This leaves us with 4 different speeds of "No Expectations" - !

    To get back to the initial subject of this thread, - it would be fantastic, if owners of a London-Beggars Banquet-vinyl LP, -
    running at a different - and higher speed - than the rest of the Decca and London copies - would report which songs actually runs faster . . . . !
  14. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    The more I get into this stuff, - the stranger it gets ! :
    SFTD runs NOTICEABLY faster on the BB-Mono Box than the BB-Decca-Stereo-Vinyl -
    but they clocks at EXACTLY the same time . . . 6.27 - ! (simultaneously played !)
    Caused by the nature of the last 2 minutes outro, -it is impossible to say where they "separate " . . . .
    Is it editing - or fading - I can´t tell . . . . ?
    - The original BB-Mono-vinyl clocks at 6.31+ . . . .
    Hmmmm -
    Well . . Happy New Year to All of you !
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  15. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member


    After fixing turntable-troubles, - which I had ! - confusing things for myself and others - (Sorry) - I decided to investigate this issue deeply.
    I found a copy similar to the record that was the original subject for this thread, - the Early US-London release, - and Yes, it is running faster, -
    but only on Side 1 !
    Side 2 - (on my copy . . ) is running the same speed as any other release. IF copies exist where side 2 runs fast too, - or only side 2, - I can´t tell, -
    and owners of the Early London has (as far as I can see) - only refered to songs from Side 1.

    What I can tell - is that these two early Mexican releases, - Mono and Stereo (the one with The ROLLLING STONES !) are running fast as well !
    Side 1 is running at the same speed as The Early London, - which means that it is a little slower than the 2002-DSD.
    The Mexican Mono does NOT hold the Dedicated Mono-Mix from the UK-Decca-BB, - but a folddown of the Stereo-version.

    Side 2 however, is running proportionately faster, - so fast that it matches the 2002-DSD, - with the little difference, that SFM fades a little later, -
    but it is the same speed.

    vudicus likes this.
  16. vudicus

    vudicus Forum Resident

    Very interesting. The plot thickens.

    The UK Decca Mono is actually a fold too apart from "Sympathy For The Devil" which is a dedicated mix.
  17. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    "The UK Decca Mono is actually a fold too apart from "Sympathy For The Devil" which is a dedicated mix."

    - Absolutely correct ! - and the Dedicated Mono Mix of SFTD, - is still the fastest running version that exist -
    even faster than the 2002DSD-BB.

    Material from BB has been released at many different running speeds, - from the very start, -
    and this includes SFTD.

    A version running the same speed as the 2002 DSD, was released on SOME copies of Mexican-EP in 1969 . . .

    - and the version known from the Early London BB - & and the Mexican releases, was included on UK / Germany-compilation "Get Stoned" - 1977.

    All other releases, on either singles or compilations, runs equally to - or even slower - than the UK-Decca/US-London-BB.
    vudicus likes this.
  18. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident In Memoriam

    mill valley CA USA
    It’s too fast, unfortunately.
  19. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    Too fast, - comparing to what - ?
    I suppose we just have to accept it was done this way . . . .
  20. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident In Memoriam

    mill valley CA USA
    Compared to what it should sound like.
  21. OldSoul

    OldSoul My Eyes Have Opened

    Bay Area
    XZAL-8476A/XZAL8477B, underlined title on label, unknown pressing plant or mastering (no markings for either), needledropped and tracks cut to exact starts and ends:

    A1: 6:20.40
    A2: 3:56.56
    A3: 3:22.19
    A4: 2:19.60
    A5: 6:10.90
    B1: 3:13.68
    B2: 2:50.39
    B3: 4:34.43
    B4: 2:07.65
    B5: 4:47.58

    This is the most accurate timing of this that I've done over the years. When just looking at the track lengths, "Sympathy" and "Jig-Saw" seem to be the only tracks that run significantly slower than the 2002-present versions; but at least my rip of the 2002 CD adds a couple of seconds after the ends of the tracks, so in reality, the tracks on side one run a bit slow, while everything on side two is dead-on correct.

    The Post Your Needledrops thread in The Long And Winding forum currently has a few samples of "Stray Cat Blues" and "Factory Girl" from various pressings over the years, including mine, and it's clear that there's been quite a lot of variation is speeds throughout the years. "Slow" versions aren't identically slow.
  22. jacksonwalker

    jacksonwalker Forum Resident

    1st pressing London Records ‎– PS 539. Matrix / Runout: XZAL-8476 A; (Side 2): XZAL-8477-B. Correct speed as far as I can tell.
  23. vudicus

    vudicus Forum Resident

    About a month ago I saw a US pressing for sale in the UK on fleabay so I sent the seller a message asking for details regarding the matrix code.
    They got back to me and told me it was a ZAL-8476 A / XZAL-8477 B pressing so I purchased the LP for £22.50 plus £4.50 postage.

    In terms of condition I'd rate the cover about a VG+ or EX- and the vinyl is a strong EX with no scratches, just a few paper scuffs etc.

    As I had just sent my tonearm to be re-wired, I've been waiting 4 LONG weeks to give it a spin to find out if I had the real thing.
    I'm finally getting to spin it now and I can confirm that it is the correct speed version. I can also confirm that it sounds amazing.
    superstar19 likes this.
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