Old US Pressing of ‘Beggar's Banquet’ at Correct Speed

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Esszet, Jul 12, 2012.

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  1. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    No, it doesn't.
     
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  2. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    Thanks to lukpac´s laconic "No, it doesn´t." - I of course had to "go back to the study chamber " . . . . .

    Up till now, I have used an A / B comparison method, - switching from one source to the other, - but this let me to do some
    "simultaneously playing" - ( which from experience is difficult in praxis, - starting two devices at exactly the same time ) -
    and the A / B-method let me to the conclusion, that all (with the exception of "Rolled Gold, vinyl") versions of
    "Sympathy For The Devil" runs at the same speed.

    I now realize , - from simultaneously playing, - that the 2002 DSD version of SFTD runs slightly faster than the 1984 CD, -
    almost not audible from an A/B, - but detectable with simultaneous playing.

    The strange thing is, - that not all pre-2002 CD-releases of SFTD are identical.
    The version on "Singles Collection - The London Years" 1989 is very close to the 2002 release, - and slightly faster than the 1984 CD-release.

    We are talking very subtile differences - and not anything that is "noticeably" different !

    Concerning the "Beggars Banquet" - "correct speed" - I don´t have a defined meaning - or theory - yet, -
    but my "feeling" is, - that Glyn Johns deliberately slowed down some of the songs, - to create a certain atmosphere -
    and not due to some "technical error" - !
     
  3. lil.fred

    lil.fred Señor Sock

    Location:
    The East Bay
    Only if true.
     
  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Sympathy For The Devil:

    That's incorrect. The 2002 is noticeably faster than either the original 1984 CD or the 1989 Singles Collection. The 1984 CD and 1989 Singles Collection are less than a tenth of a second different in length. On the other hand, the 2002 CD is over 9 seconds shorter than either of those releases.

    Please see above.

    If he had done that, he likely would have done so at the mixing stage. But he didn't.
     
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  5. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    Any theory on why "Prodigal Son" and "Factory Girl" runs faster on the 1984 CD than the 1968 Decca vinyls ?
    (confirmed by simultaneous playing)
    - "Street Fighting Man" and "No Expectations" does too, - but that is more "understandable" - as they seems to be
    identical to the 1968 single release.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  6. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    A little OT, - but never the less closely connected :
    In 1968 "Street Fighting Man" was released on a Mono-Orange-Swirl-Promo 7", - holding a version with an alternate vocal.
    This was released on the "Singles Collection, - The London Years" 2002 - but here it runs faster than the original 7" !
    This fact makes me very suspicious concerning the so called "correct" speed on the 2002 releases of all the "Beggars Banquet" - material-!

    The Mono-Promo was an individual product - and could not have been affected by any "technical error" -
    so why is it running faster on the 2002 - release ?
     
  7. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Does your turntable have problems? This 45 on YouTube runs very close to the speed of the 2002 Singles Collection:



    The mono box also runs at about the same speed.
     
  8. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    I will have to investigate if my 45-speed has problems. It´s an old tractor, - Thorens TD 318 . . .
    -but my Stereo-promo 7" plays at exactly the same speed as the CD-releases.

    It was a surprise to me, that the Blue-Swirl 7" holds this version, - with the alternate vocal, -
    and I agree that it is identical to the 2002-SC release.
     
  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Stereo promo? I’m not aware of such a thing, but if it’s the stereo mix, no wonder it doesn’t run at the same speed.
     
  10. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    "Street Fighting Man" - Stereo was released on a (rare) 7" Orange Swirl Promo, London 45-909-DJ - and runs at exactly the same speed as the 1984-BB CD release, -
    (which is why I presumed that my 45-speed was correct, - but I will have it stroboscopically confirmed) -
    and which is slightly faster than the BB-Decca vinyl release.
    The 2002 release of BB runs "faster" again, (which simultaneous playing proved, - I couldn´t hear it from A/B listening) - leaving us with 3 different speeds of SFM,
    the 1968 BB-Decca Vinyl, / the 1968 7" vinyl promo- 1984 BB-CD / and the 2002 DSD CD.

    I will come back with comments on the Mono-release, - when further investigated, -
    as it certainly is a possibility, that the Orange Swirl Promo, - and the Blue Swirl release has
    differences, - such as for instance speed . . . .
    Several Orange Swirl Promos differs from the Blue Swirls, - but normally it is editing -
    ("Jumpin´Jack Flash" and "We Love You") - making the songs shorter . . .
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  11. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm still not sure what you're talking about. You were just talking about a mono promo, and the 45 mix on Singles Collection:

    As I pointed out, Singles Collection runs at about the same speed as the mono 45. A stereo 45 would be the same mix as the LP.
     
  12. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    SFM was released on two different Orange Swirl 7" Promos.

    One in Mono (London 45-909) and one in Stereo (London 45-909-DJ)

    The Mono mix was then released on the Blue Swirl 7" (which is new to me, - I thought it held the Stereo version) - but running slightly faster.
    This version is identical to the 2002-SC release.

    The Stereo Orange Swirl 7" runs faster than the BB-Decca vinyl, and is identical to the 1984 BB CD-release, - the 2002 BB-CD runs even faster.
     
  13. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    The "correct" speed of the "Beggars Banquet" material is quite a mess.
    I´ve looked a little deeper into "No Expectations" - cross playing it all simultaneously -

    The 1984 BB-CD release runs faster than that 1968 BB-Decca vinyl, -
    but the 1968 Orange Swirl 7" Stereo Promo runs faster than the 1984 BB-CD ! !

    - and then the 2002 releases (BB - More Hot Rocks - SC-The London Years - all identical) - are even faster.

    This leaves us with 4 different speeds of "No Expectations" - !

    To get back to the initial subject of this thread, - it would be fantastic, if owners of a London-Beggars Banquet-vinyl LP, -
    running at a different - and higher speed - than the rest of the Decca and London copies - would report which songs actually runs faster . . . . !
     
  14. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    The more I get into this stuff, - the stranger it gets ! :
    SFTD runs NOTICEABLY faster on the BB-Mono Box than the BB-Decca-Stereo-Vinyl -
    but they clocks at EXACTLY the same time . . . 6.27 - ! (simultaneously played !)
    Caused by the nature of the last 2 minutes outro, -it is impossible to say where they "separate " . . . .
    Is it editing - or fading - I can´t tell . . . . ?
    - The original BB-Mono-vinyl clocks at 6.31+ . . . .
    Hmmmm -
    Well . . Happy New Year to All of you !
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  15. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    [​IMG]

    After fixing turntable-troubles, - which I had ! - confusing things for myself and others - (Sorry) - I decided to investigate this issue deeply.
    I found a copy similar to the record that was the original subject for this thread, - the Early US-London release, - and Yes, it is running faster, -
    but only on Side 1 !
    Side 2 - (on my copy . . ) is running the same speed as any other release. IF copies exist where side 2 runs fast too, - or only side 2, - I can´t tell, -
    and owners of the Early London has (as far as I can see) - only refered to songs from Side 1.

    What I can tell - is that these two early Mexican releases, - Mono and Stereo (the one with The ROLLLING STONES !) are running fast as well !
    Side 1 is running at the same speed as The Early London, - which means that it is a little slower than the 2002-DSD.
    The Mexican Mono does NOT hold the Dedicated Mono-Mix from the UK-Decca-BB, - but a folddown of the Stereo-version.

    Side 2 however, is running proportionately faster, - so fast that it matches the 2002-DSD, - with the little difference, that SFM fades a little later, -
    but it is the same speed.


    [​IMG]
     
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  16. vudicus

    vudicus Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Very interesting. The plot thickens.

    The UK Decca Mono is actually a fold too apart from "Sympathy For The Devil" which is a dedicated mix.
     
  17. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    "The UK Decca Mono is actually a fold too apart from "Sympathy For The Devil" which is a dedicated mix."

    - Absolutely correct ! - and the Dedicated Mono Mix of SFTD, - is still the fastest running version that exist -
    even faster than the 2002DSD-BB.

    Material from BB has been released at many different running speeds, - from the very start, -
    and this includes SFTD.

    A version running the same speed as the 2002 DSD, was released on SOME copies of Mexican-EP in 1969 . . .
    [​IMG]

    - and the version known from the Early London BB - & and the Mexican releases, was included on UK / Germany-compilation "Get Stoned" - 1977.

    All other releases, on either singles or compilations, runs equally to - or even slower - than the UK-Decca/US-London-BB.
     
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  18. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    mill valley CA USA
    It’s too fast, unfortunately.
     
  19. HenrikBB

    HenrikBB Member

    Too fast, - comparing to what - ?
    I suppose we just have to accept it was done this way . . . .
     
  20. chacha

    chacha Forum Resident In Memoriam

    Location:
    mill valley CA USA
    Compared to what it should sound like.
     
  21. OldSoul

    OldSoul My Eyes Have Opened

    Location:
    Bay Area
    XZAL-8476A/XZAL8477B, underlined title on label, unknown pressing plant or mastering (no markings for either), needledropped and tracks cut to exact starts and ends:

    A1: 6:20.40
    A2: 3:56.56
    A3: 3:22.19
    A4: 2:19.60
    A5: 6:10.90
    B1: 3:13.68
    B2: 2:50.39
    B3: 4:34.43
    B4: 2:07.65
    B5: 4:47.58

    This is the most accurate timing of this that I've done over the years. When just looking at the track lengths, "Sympathy" and "Jig-Saw" seem to be the only tracks that run significantly slower than the 2002-present versions; but at least my rip of the 2002 CD adds a couple of seconds after the ends of the tracks, so in reality, the tracks on side one run a bit slow, while everything on side two is dead-on correct.

    The Post Your Needledrops thread in The Long And Winding forum currently has a few samples of "Stray Cat Blues" and "Factory Girl" from various pressings over the years, including mine, and it's clear that there's been quite a lot of variation is speeds throughout the years. "Slow" versions aren't identically slow.
     
  22. jacksonwalker

    jacksonwalker Forum Resident

    1st pressing London Records ‎– PS 539. Matrix / Runout: XZAL-8476 A; (Side 2): XZAL-8477-B. Correct speed as far as I can tell.
     
  23. vudicus

    vudicus Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    About a month ago I saw a US pressing for sale in the UK on fleabay so I sent the seller a message asking for details regarding the matrix code.
    They got back to me and told me it was a ZAL-8476 A / XZAL-8477 B pressing so I purchased the LP for £22.50 plus £4.50 postage.

    In terms of condition I'd rate the cover about a VG+ or EX- and the vinyl is a strong EX with no scratches, just a few paper scuffs etc.

    As I had just sent my tonearm to be re-wired, I've been waiting 4 LONG weeks to give it a spin to find out if I had the real thing.
    I'm finally getting to spin it now and I can confirm that it is the correct speed version. I can also confirm that it sounds amazing.
     
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