Old VS. New Integrated Amp shootout

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BKphoto, Sep 13, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    I'm with you. The winner may have the best phono section and the worst amp section.

    The OP only cares about the full package though.
     
    CraigVC likes this.
  2. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I really like the pre 1980’s receivers but not their internal phonostages. I would fully expect the modern amp to have a much better phono. Both could be beat by a moderately priced external.

    I’ve got a Sansui 9090 and if I based my opinion of the receiver based on its internal phono, it would be below average. Feed it a nice DAC or external phono and it really comes to life.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that speakers have changed over the last 40 years and each amp was designed to work with speakers of their time. I’ve found this generally means new amps are more Neutral and vintage have more of a boost in certain areas. So a new amp can sound bright and an old one can sound muddy depending on what speakers they are connected to. I’ve had my 9090 connected to three different sets of speakers that I know very well. It presents itself wildly differed in each case.
     
    enfield and CraigVC like this.
  3. SirMarc

    SirMarc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cranford, NJ
    I see you're coming around to my side with the 9090 phono stage lol
     
    Dennis0675 likes this.
  4. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    I agree. The new amp will have more clarity and resolution. Whether or not your EARS will hear that, I have no idea. And if so, if it is an illusion is a good question.
     
  5. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Reminds me of when I removed the nose off my car's factory radio, pulled out the radio, built a shelf in the empty space, and used the fake nose to cover up the expensive head unit inside
    --> Hide the new one behind the faceplate of the old one :p
     
    Duke Fame likes this.
  6. mannypr

    mannypr Active Member

    Location:
    puerto rico
    Hi there guys . Been in Audio for 45 year in which I've heard a lot and own some . I have always believe that a lot of the old stuff is competitive with the new equipments sonically speaking .
    If you analyze current technology there is nothing new in amplifier technology . Same circuit.designs are used with.minor modifications . Unless you mention type D amplifiers they are more or less the same .What has gotten better are the components in the equipments , better capacitors , resistors , inductors . Even speaker design hasn't change much but drivers and crossover components have leaped foward making todays speaker in most cases better.

    Case in point a friend of mine come over about a year ago and gave as a gift a Gas Ampzilla amplifier in good working condition . The Ampzilla was a superhit amplifier when it came out in the 70's . My friend being an Electrical engineer had checked it out and changed all parts that needed substitution . He did installed brand new output transistor with changing the operating parameters . Difference was make and they were transistor capable of amplifing into the MHZ frequencies as in Spectral. The ones that came with the unit were normal ones that could operate into the hundreds of hertz .

    Took the amplifier , put it on a corner in a room and left it there for about a year as I had heard it briefly with no impresion left on me . Good bass , subdued highs smooth sounding but with very little in inside detail . Macro dynamics were good but micro weren't easily disernable .

    Took it off , connected my main amp put it away and forgot about it . 4 days ago I got the urge to fool around with my system and connected it again in my main system . It was ok , thats it . But this time I put some music and left it on all day knowing that it had been lying without use for maybe years . This morning put on some music and said to myself , hey , this sounds good , it had change . soundstage had expanded , more transparent , harmonics now were coming threw , tone improved , well every sonic aspect had improved . At night I sat down to listen again and I was very surprised as it had continued to improved up to a level I never imagine it would .
    Now it was doing things better then my own amp , a Mccormack . Can't wait till tomorrow and see if these improvements continue . Now I clearly understood why this amp was considered by some as the best transistor amp in the world at that time . Designer James Bongiorno was a genuis in electronic inovation and people around the globe still use this amp in their systems and swear by it . That a amplifier design 40 years ago can sound this good tells us something relating to this discussion . The Marantz 8B is considered by many to be the best amp out there design in the sixties . So you see just because its old doesnt mean it can't sound better then a modern design .
     
    billnunan, timind and rem 600 like this.
  7. mannypr

    mannypr Active Member

    Location:
    puerto rico
    without changing the operating parameters I meant to say , sorry.
     
  8. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    You can edit posts for 30 min on this forum. Thought you'd like to know.
     
    timind likes this.
  9. BKphoto

    BKphoto JazzAllDay Thread Starter

    so, essentially you guys are right in saying its a phono section shootout...I'm not interested in external options, less is more is my philosophy after having a zillion different components through the years and trying this with that, etc....over and over again...

    step back for a second, it was purchased from an extremely reputable hifi store, packaged perfectly with all the original stuff.

    I have a cd setup in my garage (attached and not used as a garage) more like a man-cave...just wanted to make sure everything was working properly so i'm not just wasting my time...

    So far the overall feeling is that the 8005 is all over the place...May be a synergy issue, keep in mind speakers and TT have all been completely restored...

    The album that is baffling me the most is the Classic Records pressing of Hank Mobley 1568...The pressing is known to be a tad on the bright side, listened to it 3 times yesterday and it seems veiled, bass a little on the boomy side...

    again, this is a vinyl set only, will never be anything else...also I went into this with the thought of new will obviously be better and all I really care about is which one sounds the best...

    more to come...
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
    Gumboo, timind, CraigVC and 1 other person like this.
  10. Heavy Music

    Heavy Music Forum Resident

    I remember when I bought my new Marantz 1180DC, around 1978, the "crafty" salesman told me be the noise floor of the 1180 was horrible. He continued to demonstrate by comparing it with another brand. Yup, the 1180 had an excessive amount of noise, but "crafty" me checked the input selectors and... lo & behold the 1180 was set to an open phono input and the other to aux. The 1180DC sold!
     
    Helom and timind like this.
  11. BKphoto

    BKphoto JazzAllDay Thread Starter

    all things being equal making a good phono section isn't rocket science, its been done for years...

    thats why my initial thoughts were that this wasn't going to be close at all and the newer would win out because it should be "old hat" by now...

    i'm dumbfounded, there doesn't seem to be any consistency...
     
  12. Mitsuman

    Mitsuman Diamond Tone Junkie

    Location:
    Missouri
    I am a vintage audio guy, dyed in the wool, (except for speakers) so I will pull for the vintage IA purely from an emotional standpoint. That said, I've never been a fan of the "2 martini" Marantz sound of the 70's gear. I own a one-owner 2270 receiver that has been totally gone through and operating perfectly. I still don't like the sound of it, and I've tried it through vintage and newly designed speakers. But, I might just prefer the 8005 nowadays, if it is more accurate, less colored, and totally neutral. My Mitsu amps are very flat and neutral, and some might say sterile, but they are accurate to a fault and will highlight anything else in the chain that is not up to snuff.

    Very interested to hear the OP's final determination.
     
  13. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    I'm not sure about amplifier technology not changing. The S/N ratio certainly has changed on some designs. Certainly, S/N isn't the only measurement, but something design wise has changed where some modern amps have a much better ratio. Some of this may be power supply technology vs output device...but things have changed. However, he is comparing integrated which has preamp designs and controls which have certainly changed over time.
     
  14. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I’ve got a pretty bad attitude about most internals.
    there are as many different ways to do a phonostage as there are carts. It’s a spot that vintage can’t compete. A good external will blow your mind.
     
    Slick Willie likes this.
  15. Mitsuman

    Mitsuman Diamond Tone Junkie

    Location:
    Missouri
    For the sake of discussion, MM, MC, and strain-gauge. What other ways to do a cartridge are you referring to? I'll give you MI is slightly different than MM but really?
     
  16. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    The main source for the 1152 back in the day would've been records, where as the source for the 8005 would be something plugged into one of it's line inputs. Makes sense to me that Marantz would give top priority to the 1152's phono section.
     
  17. Mitsuman

    Mitsuman Diamond Tone Junkie

    Location:
    Missouri
    I know the 7C had perhaps the best phono stage of any other Marantz gear I've heard. Different era certainly, but Saul was never maligned for his phono sections anywhere I can ever remember.
     
    timind likes this.
  18. Guitarded

    Guitarded Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana

    This is simply not true at all.
    I have modern and vintage gear of all sorts. There are specific vintage models that have P Stages that will blow away most anything you could buy for under 2k, new (integrated, sperate, whatever). There are, equally, a ton of modern phono pres and integrateds that have truly awful sounding phono stages just as there are vintage units with the same.

    Newer is not always better. Not by a long shot.
     
    Helom likes this.
  19. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Back it up. Which vintage internal is better than what new external that you have owned?
     
    Rolltide likes this.
  20. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I'll bet a McIntosh MX110 has a better internal phono stage then any solid state integrated sold in the Audio Advisor catalog. Unless this is the sort of example one has in mind, I'm sticking with @Dennis0675 on this.
     
    Dennis0675 likes this.
  21. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I’ll give you that one
     
    Rolltide likes this.
  22. Guitarded

    Guitarded Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
    Scot 299, 299b, ...
    Adcom 555 ii / 565 ii
    NAD 1300
    Along with several classic Fisher and Marantz units that have been cloned endlessly since they dropped out of production.
    And a few 1980-1983 model Pioneers as well; SA-9800, SX-D series, too.

    ALL have better phono stage performance than you will receive from many seperate Pres that can be had for under 1k.

    Creek, PSAudio, iFi, ProJect...among others.

    It is simply a case by case scenario. The least of the factors being that the integrateds these phonostages came in need a proper servicing every 20-30 years.


    I have a pretty nice main system and I find many of the Audiophiles that visit (to stay and fish) are beguiled by the performance of a Dual 1019 (w/V15 III) running through any of the above systems. So much so that they go back to them over and over with amazement each time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
    SirMarc and Dennis0675 like this.
  23. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I will say this about built-ins - I've had a few preamps where while I ultimately didn't feel their internal phono stages sounded as good as external models well under $1K, the fact you always seem to get a lower noise floor from internals might lead some folks to prefer them. I myself always eventually went back to modest externals in these situations which I felt offered a net improvement.
     
  24. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    You could run one's phono preamp into the other and vice versa, for an additional listening test.
     
    SirMarc and timind like this.
  25. Wally Swift

    Wally Swift Yo-Yoing where I will...

    Location:
    Brooklyn New York
    When my Sansui 2000X started giving me trouble and my repair guy couldn't fix it I bought a Marantz PM6004. Some months later I found a real tech that restored my 2000X. The Marantz went into the closet and eventually I sold it.
     
    Bruno Primas and SirMarc like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine