Older folks mastering music - are they hearing everything?

Not to mention long haired engineers with their hair covering their ears and those who don't use Q Tips on a regular basis.

 

I always thought Tod Rundgren has a high frequency deficiency since my ears almost always bleed listening to CDs he was involved with. I love his music but have a hard time listening to them because of what I perceive as an exaggerated high end, think "A Wizard A True Star" as a perfect example.

 

I remember a story a friend told me who sat in at a few recording/mixing sessions with Linda Ronstadt and Mick Jagger for the "Simple Dreams" album. All was sounding great but every few moments Mick kept asking if the treble could be boosted because he felt the music (or elements of it) was flat. My friend said that it was very clear that Mick was hard of hearing.

 

Bob Ludwig engineered and mastered that LP.

 

Does he use assistants? or maybe he relies on frequency analysis to keep it between the lines. I like most of the work he does but I wonder if a 15 year old with a good set of ears would feel the same or is it a case of mastering for the target market?

 

What about our host as well? Would be interesting to get his take on this question (assuming he's in the same age range as Mr. Gray).

 

Probably so.....no one over 40 could possibly master something correctly, I'm sure all of the older dudes use younger assistants to guide/direct them as they could not possibly have a clue!!! Ludwig probably lost his hearing while mastering Zep II, after that the kids had to help him!
.
.
.
.
.
Jeez!

 

"Liars" is an excruciatingly bright recording (but an awesome album nonetheless). I actually use it to demo speakers with.

 

That I can FEEL the bass coming through my house when they drive by is a bit different (never had that happen in the 70s, 80s or even 90s -- been living in this house since the late 80s) and a lot more exposure than going out to a concert or a club once or twice a week, or having to be home to listen to it. The amount of exposure in an enclosed space like a car is different than being in a larger room -- it's like being right in front of the concert speakers all the time. To have your ears ringing for 2-3 days after a concert is a bad sign, but pretty common for those not wearing ear protection. Sheesh, concerts can be louder than work places (like airports!!) where hearing protection is required.

And yes, a lot of people -- especially you guys (about double the female percentage after about 20) -- from the last 30 years do have a lot of hearing loss. Sometimes it is just in certain ranges, sometimes all through, sometimes tinnitus or other issues. It's a serious thing, I'm going blind (but in the best possible way, I'll always have light/dark, colors, large shapes) but at least I have my hearing. The big point is you can't get it back, not really. I wish I could wear a "seeing aid" like there are hearing aids and maybe some time in the future there will be such a thing.

It isn't something to take casually or to laugh at, talk to someone with tinnitus and see what they have to say. Major hearing loss is not "just the way things are when you age" for most people. That people take such wild disregard to their hearing especially while young and dumb is very sad and I doubt that most of the young 'uns ever had anyone sit them down and tell them about it. Not that they would listen, but at least someone would have given them something to thing about before significant hearing loss occurred.

 

I would take someone with the experience and taste of a B0b Ludwig, etc. over a relative newcomer who doesn't know how to use their so-called "extended high frequency ability" to master a project.

 

I think many posters miss the benefit that experience and talent have. And many just seem to assume that all loose their hearing as they age. Sure, it degrades, but I did not/do not attend concerts and wear hearing protection, and am considered volume stingy by those that listen with me. I am certain that those that make their living with their ears, protect them well.

 

I actually take it seriously - as you stated, once it's gone it's permanent (given current medical technology). But this is nothing new - loud rock concerts, clubs. Just urban areas in general are loud and can cause hearing damage over time. I can't speak for the 70's as I was a bit young, but in the 80's we all pimped our car stereos and they were definitely loud and bassy.

Sorry to hear about your sight, btw.

 

I read this way too quickly as it went by and thought he referred to Peter M(ayh)ew [Chewbacca]; must be an older age thing!

 

Every one gets older, but everyone knows which albums sounded great in his younger days. And even with slight hearing loss you will know how they sound and probably they sound the same to you, the human brain compensates a lot.
So if an older engineer adjusts a new remaster to an album he knows as good sounding, he is definitely on the right way....

 

Hmm...I wonder if Steve will chime in here

 

Doubt if he will, sorta' a silly thread...

 

i am old = hearing loss
i play movies/music LOUD = hearing loss
i've been too a ton of concerts = hearing loss
i workED in factories/refineries = hearing loss
i go clubbing all the time [five nights in a row once this month alone/last Thursday~Friday~Saturday in "The City" & in "The Creek"] = hearing loss

Compression compresses the mids too [too a 'crunchy' mess/so that's not an "aging" hearing loss thingy]!!

Even tho humans can't not hear above a certain frequency, we sense high frequencies [or the lack there of & w/low frequencies as well].

Aging mastering engineers [left too their own devices] are one of the least of our probs in getting quality/musical masterings.
Brickwalling is much, much, more an industry & artist thing!!!

... and you kids get off my lawn...

 

I genuinely would like to know. I know music sounds different to me than to 20yr old. The older we get the less frequencies we can hear and this occurs even if you have looked after your hearing. A lot of the respected mastering engineers who are still working are older than I and thus I would like to know how they compensate for this, if at all.

 

Ya' think any of that has to do with the equipment/format you now play on? Just want to make sure you factored that into the equation.

 

It's not a silly thread at all.
Aging does compromise hearing a lot.
If some of the 50 plus years old members here would realize how bad their hearing has become they would never buy an SACD again.

 

Yes, Mr. Anka is getting up there.

 

I just thought I'd mention that older people may still be able to hear high frequencies even if they don't do well on hearing tests.

I say this because I discovered a few years ago that I couldn't hear a 16k tone. Yet I can hear 20k when it's boosted or cut 2db when listening to music. Obviously that doesn't seem to make sense. It tells me that how we hear music is not necessarily the same as we hear steady tones.

What this tells me is that traditional hearing tests don't necessarily relate to how people actually hear.

Believe me, if I couldn't hear 16k anymore, I'd surely be very upset listening to my music system. Fortunately I seem to still be able to hear all the highs I ever noticed when listening back to recordings. I'm not quite sure what to make of this, but I'm thrilled that I can still hear well enough to still enjoy listening as much as I ever have.

Btw, I did develop tinitus a few years back, and even with that I can still hear what I need to. I was really freaked out when I first discovered it, but as with the highs, I can still hear right through it. I do realize that there will be a day when I will not be able to hear well enough to do what I do, but fortunately that day is not here yet.

Now, back in the late 70s I did something stupid. I plugged a set of phones into a studio jack while they were on my ears, and there was a 1k tone at full scale. I jumped back about 10 feet and crashed into a drum set. I had a loud ringing in my ears for months and I was unable to do critical listening for a long time. I thought I was toast and would never regain my hearing, but alas it all came back.

That was far worse than any tinitus or age related hearing loss that I've ever experienced.

 

Well, maybe not a silly thread, but absolutely a silly post!

 

Aging can compromise hearing, but we're talking in averages, any individual's hearing, just like any individual's eyesight, will change (or not) in individual ways as that person ages. I'm 51, I do fine in steady state listening tests up to 16K and have some, though not as sensitive, hearing above that to at least 18kHz with sine wave tests; and it's hard to say, since I never tested that in my youth, if that's really any worse than it was in the first place, I mean, again 20 Hz to 20kHz is an average range for human hearing, any individual may start out with greater or lesser range. Also worth remembering the recordig enginer, or mix engineer, or mastering engineer isn't the only person listening to the work in question. Producers, artists, maybe record company guys, and maybe multiple engineers might have input too. There's also not a huge amount of music information about 14kHz either. Yeah, some non-percussion instruments have high partials above 14kHz, though they're relatively low energy, and cymbals and the like have a lot more energy up there and have partials that can extend octaves above nominal human hearing, but I'm not sure that last nominal octave is the biggest difference maker. Of course, after years of working around loud music any aging individual might have considerably more upper frequency hearing loss to a lower point on the frequency spectrum....but I think it's hard to generalize.

 

As long as you keep fresh batteries in the hearing aid, I don't see a big problem.