Older recording engineers should retire. Your opinion?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Stabby, Apr 3, 2012.

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  1. Stabby

    Stabby Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Belgium
    I'm an audiology student and since I've learned about age-related hearing loss (presbycusis) I'm thinking that older (65+) recording engineers just can't do a great job anymore.

    Presbycusis happens to everyone and can't be avoided. It's a progressive hearing loss that first affects the high frequencies. This loss is not at all noticable in understanding speech. I have tested people with a 50dB hearing loss at 6-8kHz and they don't have a single problem understanding speech, even in difficult listening situations.

    Eventually presbycusis will affect the middle frequencies as well leading to problems with understanding speech. The following graph is a bit exaggerated, but it's the best I could find:

    [​IMG]

    Everyone's hearing is affected this way with age. The process will be slower in some people than others, but no one escapes it.

    Older sound engineer should at least have a hearing test and take a look at their own audiogram to see how it affects their job. It takes 15 minutes and it gives a lot of important information. I'm thinking of a certain 87-year-old engineer who should have done this 15 years ago.
     
  2. noname74

    noname74 Allegedly Canadian

    Location:
    .
    Is it still April 1st in Belgium?
     
  3. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    Hearing is everything, but knowledge is power. This is what a lot of young engineers don't have, especially of old formats and technology, circumstances or research already done.

    Not a very nice thread to start off with though.
     
  4. yasujiro

    yasujiro Senior Member

    Location:
    tokyo
    :laugh: Seems so.
     
  5. TheRimeOfIcarus

    TheRimeOfIcarus Active Member

    He has a point. It's very unlikely someone over the age of 50 can distinguish 15-17kHz and above. That's why second opinions are always good, even though they're just opinions.
     
  6. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    Logan's Run. They should all be sucked up into a big tube when they turn 40.
     
  7. Stabby

    Stabby Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Belgium
    Look, it's not my intention to hurt anyone's feeling, but it's the harsh truth and simple hearing test will confirm that.
     
  8. Dennis Metz

    Dennis Metz Born In A Motor City south of Detroit

    Location:
    Fonthill, Ontario
    I should retire!
     
  9. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    We'll leave you first in line to sort them out then. They won't mind. :laugh:
     
  10. yasujiro

    yasujiro Senior Member

    Location:
    tokyo
    Is the high frequency response all about hearing to you? :)
     
  11. audiotom

    audiotom I can not hear a single sound as you scream

    Location:
    New Orleans La USA
    maybe that's where the loudness wars originated!
     
  12. noname74

    noname74 Allegedly Canadian

    Location:
    .
  13. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Well since I'm old I have some high frequency hearing loss so I couldn't hear it even if they were there. So I don't really care :D

    Here's how it should work; is their work any good? Yes? Then carry on. No? Then don't hire that guy.

    I'd also rather have an old guy with high frequency hearing loss that knows what they are doing over someone you guy with better hearing who doesn't.
     
  14. Stabby

    Stabby Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Belgium
    Most people above 65 have a 20-30dB loss in the 6-8kHz frequencies (and above, but those are never tested). This is barely noticable and no one will feel like they even have a hearing loss, but it's there and it affects mastering.

    I've seen people with a 50dB hearing loss at 6-8kHz and 30dB at 4kHz. They never noticed they had a hearing loss.
     
  15. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 V/VIII/MCMLXXVII

    Location:
    OH
    What about the people who sign the engineer's paycheck? What if they like the work the engineer is doing?
     
  16. yasujiro

    yasujiro Senior Member

    Location:
    tokyo
    Have you ever heard any of the Kenneth Wilkinson's recordings for Decca in the 1970s? He was born in 1912. According to your criteria, he should have retired then. It is foolish idea to me.
     
  17. mj_patrick

    mj_patrick Senior Member

    Location:
    Elkhart, IN, USA
    How many of those tested were mastering engineers?
     
  18. Stabby

    Stabby Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Belgium
    Age-related hearing loss is just a proces that affects one person sooner than another. No one is unaffected, but some people are affected slowly and will have no problems in their 70s. It will still be slightly visible on an audiogram though, so I don't see why a 15-minute hearing test is such a big deal?
     
  19. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Hearing isn't everything. If we're talking about actual recording of instruments (not mixing/mastering), hearing matters even less. Knowing what you're doing, and years of experience is a big big part of the whole picture.

    That being said, I think it's important for people who are using listening heavily as part of their work (more in the mixing/mastering stages) to be aware of and honest about their own hearing limitations. But even in those situations, recording today is *rife* with visual tools that tell you all kinds of things that are difficult or impossible to do by ear.

    It's not too different than, say, being a colorist. You don't *really* need to have great eyes or good glasses to work on images. In fact, just looking at the thing you're actually adjusting is a pretty slow and dumb way to do it, when you have a zillion powerful scope/measurement tools at your disposal to "see" what you're actually doing rather than just guessing by eye.

    In other words, I would much rather have an engineer (sound or video) with decades of experience at the helm, than an inexperienced young person with pristine hearing (or vision).

    I think there is also something to be said about learning HOW to listen.

    That all being said of course, no amount of experience or really knowing HOW to listen will ever overcome the barrier of the fact that you simply can't hear certain things.

    Should Beethoven have stopped making music when he went deaf?

    Do you think Ansel Adams in old age with bad eyes couldn't have taken a better picture than a 15 year old with 20/20 vision?

    As odd as it is to say it, being able to hear or see is not the biggest part of dealing with sound and images, IMO.
     
  20. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    My guess is that folks in the audio field probably have worse hearing than the general population.
     
  21. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Its a great idea. Replace someone with years of experience and knows how to engineer recorded sound because they can't hear the high end of a cymbal or triangle strike.

    Replace them with younger engineers who know how to:

    MAKE MUSIC SOUND REAL GOOD
     
  22. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore

    Jeez, folks have gotta earn a living.

    If their work isn't cutting it any more, they won't get hired (unless their name is a brand in and of itself).
     
  23. Yeah

    Yeah Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Falmouth, Ma. USA
    Stabby, is your last name Inthebacky?
     
  24. Burt

    Burt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kirkwood, MO
    Let the old guys master but have a safety engineer run a second safety on anything critical that has to be recorded first time. You can always re-remaster if the old guy buggers it, but he won't: the young guys are who screw things up.
     
  25. Stabby

    Stabby Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Belgium
    I'm sorry, but your comparison doesn't make much sense to me. Sight and hearing is not at all comparible.

    Suppose an engineer has a 40dB hearing loss at 6kHz and above. That person will perceive a tone of 40dB at the same level as you would hear a 0dB tone (barely audible). In order to hear anything at 6kHz and above at a normal level he will have to boost that entire frequency range 40dB. That makes a huge difference.
     
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