Opinions Please- Stanton 881S Cartridge

I was under the impression that the Pickering equivalent of the Stanton 881S was the XSV/3000 with its stock D3000 Stereohedron stylus. I burned through two D3000’s and retired the cartridge many decades ago but just last year I took a chance and resuscitated it with an $80 LP Gear ViVid Line replacement stylus. I have to say I’ve been VERY satisfied with the results although to achieve proper sound and tracking I did have to swap out the new synthetic brush for an original with horse hair as @56GoldTop alluded to above. I find the LP Gear ViVid Line to be neither shrill nor fatiguing and recommend it highly.

 

I’m curious. Which LP Gear stylus did you try and find shrill? Was it the Shibata, the ViVid Line or something else?

 

The problem I see with these is that the description reads that they are “bonded” rather than “nude” like the original. That adds mass to the tip, which changes the character of the whole thing. I wonder if the JICO replacement is nude or bonded.

 

Yes, I believe the 3000 and 881 were the same. You found the vividline replacement sounded close to the original?

 

The problem is that it’s been several decades since my last true D3000 stylus wore out and I don’t remember exactly what it sounded like in its prime, nor is my high frequency hearing what it once was. I can only compare the current Pickering/LP Gear setup with other cartridges and styli presently in my collection and in that regard it performs very impressively.

I have an Audio-Technica AT15XE with an ATN20SS Shibata stylus, another AT15XE with an ATN20Sa Shibata stylus and a Shure M97xE with a Jico SAS replacement stylus. Bonded diamond notwithstanding, the Pickering/ViVid Line tracks and sounds better than the Shure/Jico and is in a similar league with the excellent Audio-Technica Shibatas. It gives up a little in detail but makes up for it with a balanced, full-body sound with rich mids and a beautiful low-end. Totally non-fatiguing, smooth and pleasant.

 

Both, actually...

This is not an indictment of LP gear (their supplier). Replacements for non-Stanton/Pickering carts, be they VL or Shibata, do the job from quite passable to quite good, in fact. I just don't think anyone is going to hit the nail on the head until they master the old Stanton/Pickering construction methods to a "T". At least, thus far, I have not found an aftermarket stylus or retip that has.

 

It's important to note that none of the LPG brand styli will have the tie wire Stanton styli are supposed to have. If you buy Jico direct from Japan, you get the tie wire. I'm not saying they are identical to OEM (they're not) but they have a critical component the LPG stuff is missing.

 

My friend's Mom worked for Pickering/Stanton and made the carts. I have a few Stantons that I bought at factory cost. I have an 881S with a NOS stylus (I bought extras).

Because of their light tracking weight which was 'in vogue' at the time, they need a fairly lightweight arm to mount to.

Now that I have many other carts to compare against in my system the cart is just too bright and that is also true for their LO MC carts that I also have.

However, when I bought them I thought they sounded great compared to the competition such as Shure, AT and Empire all of which I previously owned.

The 881S still sounds good when compared to similarly priced carts available today.

 

What purpose does the tie wire serve?

 

Good to know they at least use the tie wire. Their cantilever looks a bit different though...I assume it is this one: 881SHIBATA, JICO stylus | Online Shopping for Japanese Phonograph Needles

I wonder if their stylus is nude or bonded...

 

Paratrace!

 

It keeps the suspension centered. Without it the cart will respond differently to anti-skate settings and may not track as well.

 

All JICO will the exception of the SAS models AFAIK are bonded. Now, even for a bonded Shibata the quality is still good and out tracks some nude styli, IME. I have a Jico Shibata for my 680. It will probably satisfy most people.

If you need a nude Shibata or line contact, best to go with a custom retip. That's what I'll do eventually.

 

All I know is that my Pickering tracks beautifully at 1.25g with the LPG ViVid Line and the original “Dustamatic” brush. I used a test record to help set it up and verify settings. Maybe the Stanton cartridges are more sensitive and/or the ViVid Line replacement stylus was designed to compensate for the lack of a tie wire.

EDIT: I do recall that the stock XSV/3000 (and, I guess, also its Stanton cousin, the 881S) were designed to track as low as 0.75g. Perhaps the tie wire was most helpful at that ridiculously low weight??

 

This cartridge needs genuine styli only. Aftermarkets for any Pickering/Stanton are the most difficult to get right. None are even close.

 

Some folks notice no problems without the tie wire, some notice issues. Some folks are just picky and want the styli made the correct way per OEM design, which is with the tie wire. The only reason LPG omits the tie wire is to cut costs. VTF isn't the issue here, neither is Stanton vs. Pickering since there are corresponding models between the two brands that are basically the same damn thing.

 

The original stylus was an advanced design and I don't think the generic stuff stacks up. It was my very best cartridge back in the 80's. I looked for some on ebay with the original stylus..tough to find..and expensive for a used cart. Like Shure, Stanton not longer in business on any of their carts...too bad.
If I were to buy a third party stylus I might try LP Gear..or look for a Jico SAS.

 

UPDATE:

I have installed the Stanton 881S in my Rega P@ (2016 model) and installed the OEM Stylus JohnO recommended. (Thanks John). I have done listening tests as compared to the GE VR 1000 which had been in the Rega.

Equipment used:

Preamp: Jolida J9 with the IC chip upgrade and Sylania Gold Pin 5151s. Loading set for 47K.
Amp: Restored EICO ST-40.
Speakers: Tannoy Saturn Floorstanders.

Tracking force set for 1.25 Gms.

LPs played:

Hor Zu - Please Please Me
The Ventures - Surfing Deluxe
Johnny and The Hurricanes - Stormsville
The Crickets - In Style
The Monkees - Re Focus (made from the first gen Lp Masters).
Percy Faith - More Themes For Young Lovers

PS...I chose these particular records because I "Know" them very well, and I would be able to pick out the differences easier, which I did.

Results:

The results *really* surprised me.

I was expecting the 881S to blow the doors off the VR-1000. It didnt.

The 881S is certainly a detail monster. It grabs lots of tiny detail from the grooves, you can hear the instruments in the mix more clearly. Its really good at that. In fact, I'll be honest, I played the Hor Zu "Please Please Me" on it first because I know EVERY note on that LP by heart, and the 881S resolved stuff on the instrumental side with Georges guitar that I had never heard before. Great job there.

The 881S seems to hide groove noise better than the VR-1000. I suppose thats the elliptical tip.

The Stereo image on the 881S is GREAT.I'ts nice and Wide, and its Rock Solid. To me, this was its greatest strength, because I am a nut for true stereo mixes.

However.

In general, the overall sound was lacking "balls", "soul", "meat", etc, for lack of a better description. The cart seems kind of clinical and lightweight as compared to the VR-1000. It does not hit you over the head like the VR-1000.
The Percy Faith LP is all Orchestral, and it sounded a bit shrill and high. With the VR-1000, it was much more real and lifelike. Now, this is NOT to say the 881S sounded bad in any way...it doesnt, we are talking preference.


The VR-1000 gives this meaty, full bodied sound with lots of Energy, even if there is not *as* much detail.
Thats *my* preference from a cartridge, and I fully understand it might not be anyone elses.

In complete honesty, the VR-1000 was more "fun" to listen to than the 881S. I was REALLY surprised how well the VR-1000 punched given its age and rather inexpensive status (in 1960).

So...I will listen some more to the 881S, but I'm pretty surprised right now.

 

Give it time to break in. Say, 50-100 hours. Report back after.

 

If I correctly understand the information in THIS THREAD it seems that the $80 LP Gear Vivid Line stylus I’m currently using with my Pickering XSV/3000 cartridge also fits and performs equally well with the Stanton 881S. I experience none of the negatives you describe with that $30 OEM elliptical and, in fact, find the LP Gear totally “meaty” and full-bodied (your desires?) with absolutely no shrillness or distortion.

I know the equipment chains are different but since the the Stanton 881S and the Pickering XSV/3000 are essentially the same internally I would be happy to share a sample needle drop or two to help you decide if you might want to further experiment with your 881S, albeit with an additional small investment. I LOVE the performance of my reincarnated old Pickering cart and, like you, appreciate the wonderful channel separation.

Unfortunately, I have none of the “test” records you listed but perhaps there’s some other common ground. Just an offer. I have nothing to gain or lose by your decision.

 

Thanks Steely, but I think one needs to be listening to a cart live in order to make a real judgement.

Benzion: 50 to 100 hours, seems to me a long time. But I understand your point.

 

I that case I would implore you to order that exact Vivid Line (not the one of the models they label specifically for the Stantons) and hear for yourself, live and in person (unless you truly believe a $30 elliptical is somehow going to be superior because it was originally sold as a “Stanton.”)

 

Not a surprise that some find the Stanton 881S "clinical" as it has a virtually flat frequency response 20Hz-20KHz and does not have any frequency humps that color the music. That and with the stereohedron shibata style stylus cut, it plays exactly what is on your vinyl.

If you are used to a cartridge that colors certain frequencies and you like that the 881S may not be to your liking as it faithfully reproduces what is on the vinyl without adding anything. It is a very neutral cartridge.

 

This is almost exactly my experience - doesn't surprise me at all. Sounds like we have very similar tastes in what we like from a cartridge. I forgot to say that I've heard two 881's, but I have no idea what the stylus was on either. They had been around a good while, but rarely used, so it's likely that they were the original Stantons that came with them.

 

Thanks Tim, that is interesting. Another thing that I thought of is that since I am using a Valve Preamp, and Valve Stereo amp (from 1960), AND I play old music almost exclusively, I just think there is synergy with the 1960 VR-1000 that there isnt with the 80s Stanton. Like, I'm quite sure that in 1960, many audiophiles used the VR-1000 with the same EICO amp I have.

I think I need to give the stanton more listening time, and see what it sounds like in a few weeks.