Options for entering the tube world

Err, now it’s about Klipsch.
Really, don’t do that if you can prevent it. Don’t!
These are NOT Klipschorns. Not even near.
Look for Tannoys (not DC, their highs sometimes can strip the paint off the wall) with adjustable treble
Maybe Dynaudios would fit the bill as well - not a big fan, but well made and can rock. Or Vintage JBL.
I am sure the guys here can give more options (in the US the brand mix is a bit different).

 

I really like the Fortes. I don't have a huge room so I've wondered about the KG4 or the Heresy, but I keep coming back to the Fortes. How do you like the CF3s? I've not actually heard those before.

 

I've been very ready to move on from the M5, though I will mention that Bob from tubes4hifi home page assures me that his amps will have problem with driving the M5s. I think when I came into this - and even more so after all the great talk on this thread - the trick is finding the right match. I'm trying to be careful though not to buy an amp to fit my current speakers since I'd like to move on from them though the truth is it might be nice to not have to rush into speakers.

 

I love the cf3's. I have 2 pair now - on each of my main systems. They have 2 10's and one very large horn between them. They are slightly different than the heritage sound. I had thought my final pair of klipsch might be la scalas or k-horns but after a discussion with another user here i think i will stay with the cf3s - unless i get line on some cf4's some day. Both my KG4's and Fortes have replacement crossovers and tweeter diaphragms from crites. I find the cf3s smoother and easier to produce better bottom end where i use them. The forte's have the rear radiator and need certain placement so that it can work properly. The cf3's are ported on the front so i can get them closer to the wall in my limited space. I use my unmodified pair of kg4's as home theater fronts and in that task they perform very well. I had some newer klipsch rp-150ms there and they definitely had a slight edge to them. The KG4 removes that and adds a nicer fuller front end.

 

Admittedly, this circle is what is probably driving me crazy. So many people push Klipsch as the perfect match for tubes - including many people on Klipsch forums who swear that the Fortes need a tube amp to sound right - and then folks here (who seem to be way more knowledgeable than those I read elsewhere) say otherwise.

For many reasons, solid state is not the right option for me right now. They may not be sensible but a combination of a lifelong love of tubes (well founded or not), a desire to get much of what is lauded out of tubes even if it can be found elsewhere, and what I see as a joy in being able to roll tubes and hear the differences and search for a combo that feels right to me. Maybe not the right reasons for buying gear but I'm okay accepting where I'm at.

There is a challenge in all this in expressing how one likes to listen to music. I play banging techno at clubs, but find the tremendous joy out of listening to sparse avant-garde jazz. Wadada Leo Smith singing through his trumpet on a gorgeous system is something I can't wait to hear. I suspect for all the talk of needing the guts to rock or the bass to boom, I will be most excited by the clarity and beauty that a great system can bring. Those Omegas, talked about elsewhere, look like beauties. Some say they don't have enough bottom end, so I worry, but I also have this feeling that for critical listening they will be a joy.

It seems like a really difficult dance between finding the right speakers and the right amp and in particular doing so within a niche audiophile market while trying to source used gear so that I can get a higher level of product than I could new. Options become somewhat limited.

At the moment, there are a pair of Klipsch Forte IIs in town that I have nearly pulled the trigger on several times. I almost went for it on a pair of those Omegas that were available too even having never heard them. The La Scalas and the Cornwalls are both considerably bigger footprints than the Fortes which are already not small. It seems going down that road is not the right one for me.

I'm open to other ideas if you (or anyone) has them. I've certainly rambled about myself enough in this thread for people to have some idea. I'm really quite tempted to try those Omegas. If they aren't gutsy enough I feel like I can always add a sub or two to the mix. Omega makes a beautiful sub, too. And what beautiful gear.

I admit, though, I'm somewhat more confused than ever...

 

These Omegas are gorgeous. What I read about their sound always sounds like an exceptional experience. The one common complaint is the low end. I'll admit, I can't help but think that in my house with neighbors and a wife and kids, I will rarely want to rattle the studs. I have a PA at a warehouse for that. I see my home system as critical listening. My fear is no that they won't bump, but more that they will lack the low end to really fill out the sound. It sounds like you don't have that experience.

Which Omegas do you have? Do you have their sub(s) too?

And maybe my question to you - and to anyone else listening - if I did go with the omega, what is a good matching amp that will at least do its best to match the Omega to make the most of it?

 

My Omegas are the Super Alnico High Output XRS towers.

Regarding bass... My speakers before the Omegas were Tekton Lores. I first ran the Lores with a 110wpc Odyssey Khartago (solid-state, class A-A/B). After about a year I added a 2wpc Decware SE84UFO2 (which I still have and love), and bass from the Lores was markedly better with the little Decware than with the Khartago. When I upgraded to the Omegas, I was again surprised how much the bass improved over the Lores. I expected the 10" Lore woofers and 110wpc SS khartago to give me the best bass, but I actually got the best bass from my 2wpc SE tube amp and Omegas with 8 inches of driver (the High Output XRS has 2 6" drivers per tower, each running full range, which I think works out to about 8" of total driver surface area per channel).

As I mentioned up-thread, I also have a 20wpc Decware Torii Jr which uses 4 EL34s. This is a great amp that I'll most likely keep forever, but in some ways I prefer the 2wpc Decware, which is about 1/3 the price of the Torii Jr bought new (my Torii Jr was used).

I don't have Omega subs, but I do have a pair of REL t/5i subs which are very similar to the Omega subs (both have 8" down-firing woofers and enclosed cabinets). All of my comments regarding bass are from before I added the subs this spring, but the subs definitely take things to another level.

Even though I splurged and bought Omega's top-of-the-line towers, if I was able to do it over I'd get the Super Alnico Monitors, which have a single 6" driver per speaker and are rated at 8 ohms vs 4-6 ohms for the High Output XRSs (Decware amps have settings for low impedance speakers, but I always wonder if higher impedance speakers would be better overall, as tubes typically like more resistance.) I think the smaller Omegas would be all I need for my space, and the subs would compensate for the decrease in low-end.

So the advice I always give when it comes to Omega and Decware is to get a pair of Compact Alnico Monitors or Super Alnico Monitors, and pair them with the $995 2wpc Decware SE84UFO. You might find that this is all you need, and if you decide you need more power or bigger speakers, both pieces of gear are super easy to flip at close to retail. When funds allow and if you think it's needed, you can add a sub or two and have a killer tube/high-efficiency, American made system for not that much money.

 

There is a reason for that. It is not just Klipsch but many, if not most high sensitivity horn loaded speakers sound better with tubes and can sound strient when used with SS amplification.

My vintage Altec Lansing fall into this category. Although they tend not to have quite the same edge as hertiage Klipsch models.

I had a pair of Klipsch KG 5.5's and they liked power and sounded good with SS amps. I used them for my HT front mains back in the 90's.

I think the Klipsch Epic CF series are some of the finest all around speakers that Klipsch ever built.

I think they were a victim of their own design. They were not a very highly successful Klipsch speaker.

I belive the reason for this is because they were too refined and Klipsch buyers were more used to Klipsch speakers to be more forward a rough sounding.

Thr CF-3's are a particularly excellent speaker. The CF-4's are too but they are even larger than the 3's and do better with a large room. The 3's are better suited to more medium size rooms.

I want to point out that there is nothing wrong with the Forte's but I consider them closer to the KG's and the CF series than I do to the older hertiage designs.

If I was going with the Forte's, I would not attempt a flea-watt smp. I would go with a more powerful extended tube amp like the Rogue Cronus Magnum with KT-120 power tubes. This was the suggestion of member @avanti1960.

If I was going to use a lower power amp, my preference would be the Cornwall's.

The thing about the EL34 type amps is that you have a medium power class AB amp that has more power and can provide more dynamics with a greater variety of speakers than the smaller flea-watt amps.

But, another important aspect about EL34 tubes is that they are still affordable as NOS. Where power tubes like the KT88's are pure unobtanium. By going with an EL34 type amp, you can use these NOS tubes which have that beautiful magic midrange.

Couple that with a nice pair of Cornwall's and you have a nice kit.

Maybe member @Ntotrar can weigh in and provide some additional info as to what power works to the best advantage with the Cornwall's?

I agree that they do but because I have zero experience with them, I completely refrain from making any comments about them.

With tube amps and speakers, it always is. So I feel that it is better to choose your speakers and then find the best amp match for them.

I buy every piece of gear I can on the used market for that very reason.

That, as I have commented is not a bad decision. They are good speakers. If you can get a good deal on them, I say go for it.

I will comment that neither legacy Klipsch nor Altec Lansing make the perfect home stereo speaker in their stock form.

One reason for this is that neither company makes crossover networks that are worth writing home about. Upgrading your crossover network is a must do, if you are buying legacy Altec or Klipsch speakers.

Might I suggest you check out a tour of my former audio room. It is just after my audio gear listing in my profile. It is complete with photos and descriptions.

You will see a close-up photo of the upgraded crossover network that I use for the Altec A7's, which are also pictured.

These crossovers are upgrade crossovers that ALK Engineering custom makes as upgrades for the Klipsch Heritage speakers. My crossovers are the AP12-500.

These are designed as replacement upgrades for the La Scala's, which crossover at the same 500-Hz. as the Altec A7's.

Al Klappenberger from ALK engineering is a retired microwave engineer who manufactures crossovers exclusively for the heritage Klipsch speaker line.

He makes an affordable crossover network for the Forte's also.

Here is a link to his web site:

ALK Engineering

I want to point out that there is another very knowledgeable individual who makes some nice upgrades for Klipsch products, but his crossover networks are basically original Klipsch designs that have upgraded modern capacitors. ALK engineering makes crossovers that are true upgrades.

If you pick up those Forte II's and replace the factory crossovers with the ones from ALK, it will make a world of difference in their performance, as specially with tube amplification.

The Ls Scala's are 2' square at their base and are quite large as well ad heavy. They really are not the best choice for home audio and require extensive modifications to really bring them up to audiophile quality but even then, the bass will still be restricted to around 60-Hz.

Decware amps are super nice amps. I have three of them, including the same Torii Jr., the Mini Torii and the ZP3 phono preamp.

 

Simple, the LM211IA has two modes. Triode at 15 watts and Ultra-Linear at 32 watts. In Triode the Cornwalls are particularly sweet on strings and acoustic instruments, female voices and the bass is tight. Volume is somewhat limited compared to the higher powered setting. Blue grass, string quartet and singer songwriter are examples that benefit from Triode. In Ultra-Linear the sound is dynamic, large and bold, better for rock and large scale classical. Symphony, opera and organ are reproduced loud with deep bass. The Cornwalls seem to prefer the 4 Ohm taps.

 

The 211ia or the 216 will both be terrific entry points into the world of tube amplifiers - have an on board meter so easier to bias and they're built well and they have dealer support (if you buy from a US dealer).

I am somewhat tempted to buy the 211IA for my bedroom system and use my KingKo for headphone duties. Plus the 211 and 216 have remote - for the money it will be tough to beat these two. Equal maybe but not beat.

Anyone know the US prices on the two models? I am several years out of date on both of them.

 

I bought mine after obtaining the Cornwalls. Goldprint Audio (a forum member) made the recommendation and had a lightly used one in stock. Since buying I have thought about different amps but haven't been able to replace it, it's just that good. I added the LM215CD and it hasn't disappointed either.

 

Unfortunately, I was told the 211ia has been replaced with the 34ia. The 34ia, I think, only operates in ultralinear mode.

 

I think they need US only models due to the price discrepancies. The 211ia is still 8n Hong Kong but I do not see the 34.

 

In what can only be considered something of a real change, this thread has led me to put an offer in on a pair of used Omega Super 8 XRS. I decided that my warehouse PA is where I will get my fill of big volume and ground rattling thump. At home, for critical listening, I want to really dig into the beauty and depth that I love music for as well. So now, of course, the question becomes are there some good amps to keep an eye out for used or that I should consider new that would cost me less than $1500 (new or used welcome, though the value that used gives would be great if I can find the right fit)? The twice mentioned Decware seems in that range. Perhaps one of those SET amps with one of those tubes Richard mentioned? Are there certain tubes that help give a little more guts to what some have described as a less rocking speaker? I've gotten so much amazing information from this thread that has led me down all sorts of wonderful rabbit holes so I look forward to a final push to get me to a good starting point for this new system.

 

Congrats on the Omega speakers!


With Omega - you only need 2 watts and if they say 2 watts - you will be fine with 1.

You now pretty much have any amplifier open to you. The OTO I mentioned early would be sheer overkill at a whopping 10 watts per channel. Congrats - there is a dealer here that sells Omega and I too will auditioning them sometime this month. And I have nice 8 watt per channel monoblocks that would be sheer overkill - granted they pelt with my 90dB AN-K speakers as well so the Omega would never make my amps sweat.

There is a tactile quality to single drivers that can be beguiling. Frankly I would do Single Ended Triode on those speakers. The problem is that a good quality one will cost more than $1500.

The OTO SE is a SEP (Single Ended Pentode) and is the next closest thing to a SET. I also love the Whammerdyne DGA (Damn Good Amp) but it is double your budget.

 

Obviously I want to do these speakers justice, but I really can’t push my budget too much higher (maybe I could get to $2K). There has to be a good match in my price range, even if it isn’t everything a system can be.

This was an amp I came to this discussion with that got decent reviews.
BoyuuRange A50 MKIII 300B

The Bottlehead stereomour also looked interesting.

A couple of used things that have turned up include:

Audio Electronic Supply SE-1 Single-Ended Triode Class A Stereo Tube Amplifier | Tom's Gear Locker | Reverb

Pr Decware Model SV83M Zen Triode Signature Amplifiers, Owners Manual, USA, EX sound seem to make a lot of people happy for a reasonable price.

I wonder, is it worth getting a SET that may not be as high end as I would like or should I shift to a rock solid Push/Pull that may have too much power, but still, I assume, can sound good even on a speaker like the Omega.

 

As I have commented, you can get close to the sound of an SET with a moderately powered A/B amp and vintage NOS EL34 power tubes.

You can get a low powered SET new from Decware in the $1k range.

If you feel the need for more power, then the A/B amp can be a viable option.

 

Congratulations I have been following this thread and I think you have made the right choice. From what I have read many people are very happy with Decware amps the only thing is if you buy one from what I have read the build time is fairly long. If it was me I would see what used SET amps are around at the moment in your price range and ask opinions here.

 

I bought all three of my Decware amps used.

But I also bought my PrimaLuna and Line Magnetic amps both used for under $1,500.

 

I recently purchased a pair 103db speakers and speaker manufacturer recommended 300b tube amps. I purchased Chinese built 300b mono amps on Ebay. These amps created a loud hum from the speakers. I did some troubleshooting and I was not able to fix the problem. I was able to return them since Ebay has a good return policy if the purchase was DOA. So purchase Chinese built equipment with a good return policy.

 

I saw these, which are custom builds but looked interesting. Maybe a dangerous game to look at one off products, though?
2A3 45 SE Stereo Tube Amp Singled Ended hand built Amplifier 6SL7 5Y3
Single Ended RH84 EL84 SEP SE Tube Amplifier Walnut Base Tubes SET 5W Tamura | eBay

What about something like this Bottlehead with upgraded tubes? (or even a new bottlehead looks intriguing.)
REDUCED Bottlehead Stereomour 2A3 Single-Ended SET Tube Amplifier w/ High-End NOS Tubes

This is maybe more power than I need? Inspire by Dennis Had of Cary Audio PSE Parallel Single Ened Pentode | Tube | Naples, Florida 34119 | Audiogon

 

2A3 or EL84 tubes will only give you 2-3W of power. I would only use them to drive headphones, not speakers.

 

Here is an example of the Whammerdyne 2a3 amp 3.2 watts per channel driving eight 15 inch woofers!

With High efficiency speakers that are properly designed 2 watts is more than enough.

DGA-1 amplifier driving Pure Audio Project "Quintet" Speakers

Here is the 10 watt OTO (4.2 watts undistorted) - on 89.5dB sensitive speakers (93dB in corners).

There is just no problem - again with excellent transformers and speakers well suited to such amplifiers.



It has no problem with Motley Crue or GNR or AC/DC either.

 

I meant to ask, regarding this, what size room you feel each of the monitors can handle. I have a few potential options. I'm waiting on word back on a pair of Super 8 XRS. There are a pair of Super 7 XRS used on my radar too. I could also consider new of either the Compact or Super Alnico Monitors, though the latter may push my budget a touch. I'm keeping an eye on used gear, of course, but since it is hard to find just the right used piece, I want to look at new options, too.

 

I hope you will be able to listen before you buy. No matter how good the reviews (press or forums) you may not like them.

All people can really do is suggest 8n generalities. Omega is geared for SET amps and so the speaker will not present a difficult load on the amp. But most have not heard them or heard them with particlar examples mentioned here.

Generally, an AlNiCo driver is superior as it operates in a way that sounds nimbler which is certainly true of my speakers with AlNiCo as opposed to models without. But I can't say for Omega. I suspect it is also the case.