Options for entering the tube world

While I think this is generally good advice, the challenge of course is that this is all very boutique gear. There is no authorized USA dealers for Omegas. You deal with them directly. I don’t have a network of audiophile friends in Portland and those that I do have are fanatics for the Klipsch range, which kind fo brought me here. I’ve listened to some of what is available at the local stores, but nothing has really caught me. Nearly every amp listed here is something I’d have to buy without hearing and certainly without hearing in any specific set up I’d want. That seems the nature of getting into really niche equipment.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing. I’m just trying to understand the advice. Based on the above I would go with he Klipsch Forte IIs that I’ve heard before and liked. I’d match an amp and would be done with it. But it seems like there is so much more available to me. I’ve heard a lot of systems but not one of these pieces of gear discussed here outside of the Klipsch. It even seems like if you do hear a system, even if it matched the gear you were going to use, it would sound so very different in your own home that it would only have mild value. At least that’s what I’ve found in the past with gear I have bought. I won’t rush a big decision, but I also get that at some point you make a choice and if it doesn’t work you sell some gear used. Most of what I’m looking at should have some resale value. I’ve been living without any home stereo for a while and I do really miss it.

So is your personal recommendation that I’m better off going with a known quantity like the Klipsch rather than venturing into more specialty gear like a single driver system or a SET amp? {sadly, the pair of fortes sold so I'm back to the drawing board there too}. I love what I’ve heard about the Omega/SET combo but I get that it is a very different sound and I will have some gamble of whether I will like it. Do I limit myself to the couple of high end stores here in Portland and just go what they have that I can listen to?

 

Yes - I would always recommend you go with a speaker you have heard yourself and that you already say you like over going with an unknown - unless you can return the Omega that is.

Generally though sometimes are subconscious gets in the way. We think of the grass being greener on the other side. The single driver has some advantages but they bring some weaknesses to the table. They are not as dynamic or bass strong nor do they have the treble smoothness of mult-way speakers. They have no crossover (overlap) so the midrange can be startlingly clear. The Klipsch speakers will have more impact and more bass impact and I suspect will sound "bigger" but if they are like most Klipsch speakers will sound a little out of step in the midrange and treble. My view of this over the years would be the horns for rock music and the single driver for vocals.

If you have access to modern Klipsch - I would suggest you try and listen to a Klipsch standmount called the RP- 600M. Bring some of your bass heavier music and listen to this speaker. Single driver speakers like the Omega are often larger because they need the cabinet to reinforce bass response (as in fact do many speakers including my Audio Note E). This the Omega bass response will be in the same general ballpark as the RP-600M - so if you listen to that speaker you can sort of get a general idea about the bass you will likely get from the Omega - remember it is one driver and it has to do it all.

Buying online unheard can be done if you sort of triangulate thing by saying ok the bass is going to be like this - the midrange should be as clear as it gets for reasonable money etc etc. Omega has been around a long time and so speaking to owners can always help here.

 

I'm not sure I can disagree with this. This just makes it feel like I ought to get off of audiophile forums and quit reading reviews because in stores in town I've seen literally zero of the options I've looked at because of online research.

 

So Richard has single handedly talked you out of the Omega's?

Has he even heard them?

 

Ah, no. Not at all. I am waiting to hear back from the used pair I reached out about and I am looking at buying from the company itself as well. I am super intrigued and might even be willing to live with them for a year or so just because and then if I don't like them, move on at that point. I was just being conversational. If the idea is that I need to hear gear first, I would have to eliminate everything I've looked at. There are some nice speakers at shops in town - but none I've been considering. I do think his point is a great one. Buying expensive audio gear without hearing it is a bit of a strange move and something of a big gamble. This is especially true for someone who hasn't been knee deep in the audiophile game so doesn't' have near as much frame of reference. I get that. The hope for me is that if I pick good gear in the more boutique world that it would hold some resale value, even if it cost me a percentage to get my hands on it for a bit. But this is all a challenge. Those Klipsch were sitting there during the near week this thread has been open but they sold yesterday. I've had an email out to the used Omegas but for some reason, no response. The truth is, even beyond the challenge of picking gear is the challenge of finding it used if you choose to go that route. So this, too, has me wondering a new question - if the discount of used gear worth the challenge of finding the actual pieces you want? But, no, I'm not letting any of you very knowledgeable persons make my decisions for me even if some are quite convincing.

 

the fortes slaughter the rp600m. no contest.
the fortes are nimble, dynamic and have very good bass, ok midrange but a superb sweet treble that is among the best i have heard.
my only complaints are too much cabinet warmth and coloration and the need to back up against a wall. however they are satisfying, fun speakers and yes even for audiophiles.
tube amps are not required but sound excellent with higher power.
a hybrid amp or tube preamp w/ solid state amp is a perfect ticket.

 

Unfortunately the Fortes I was looking at have sold. Not that I can't continue to look. there are a pair of Quartets not too far away that just came up. The sound would be similar between these two, right?

The Omegas are so tempting because they are unique. They would provide me with a new listening experience. They would show me new parts/ways of music enjoyment. And I'd get exposed to a new technology as well.

But Klipsch are a 30 year obsession so it isn't easy to let go of either. I've loved every Klipsch system I've heard, though they are of course more aggressive and less delicate.

 

How are the Cornwalls for placement pickiness? Do they need to be in a corner? I've read some varying things about how finicky different Klipsch models are. (A pair of Cornwalls and a pair of Quartets just came up locally. And actually just saw a pair of LaScalas, too, though I think they are really too big for my room.)

 

Any of the Klipsch that have the rear passive radiators will have different requirements for placement. I know that cornwall is supposed to translate to corner-wall meaning thats what they need but I don't believe that is true based on many of the responses I have read on them. They do not have a rear radiator. I have never had a pair but have had my kg4's , fortes and now epics and can definitely say that the kg4's and fortes require special placement , above and beyond normal speakers, depending on your room etc. so the radiator in the rear interacts with the rear wall and produces more realistic (not boomy etc.) bass.

 

I thought the same about the Cornwalls and yet have read, as you state, that some say they are less finicky than the other Klipsch models. How do the three models you own compare to one another?

 

Hard to say as it depends on listening position (distance from speakers) and preferred volume. My listening space is average size and I like to listen at about 60-70 dB, so my High Outputs play plenty loud for me. Here’s a diagram and a photo of my listening space to give you some visuals:





I think the Omegas with 8” drivers will probably go louder than the 6” alnico models, but the alnico drivers will have a little more detail and speed.

I wouldn’t worry about not being able to demo the Omegas if you decide to buy new. As long as you don’t order something with a lot of exotic custom work, I think Louis (the owner/designer/builder of Omega) has a 30-day return period or something similar, though you should confirm that with him when placing your order. And like I mentioned, Omegas are really easy to sell on the used market without losing too much money.

You should check out the Omega forum on AudioCircle – lots of good info there. And don’t be afraid to give Louis at Omega a call just to chat. He’s a really nice guy and very helpful. He’ll be able to recommend the best model in his line to meet your needs.

 

KG4's - I love their midrange - it has 2 8's woofers. Not as detailed on the top end - fairly small horn tweeter. Not super for low-end - but still nice. Does have a passive radiator.
Forte I's - (mine have replacement new crossovers and titanium tweeter diaphrams) Nicer , but different midrange. More detail on top end . The tweeter and Mid are horns. Much more low end. Mine has a 12 in driver and 12 in passive radiator.
Epic CF3's - they are epic! Midrange and highs are very nice and detailed - 1 Very large horn covers both in between the 2 woofers. Low end comes from 2 10in woofers - ported in the front - it's substantial.

 

My listening room is roughly 17'x22' with 8' ceilings. My system is on the 17' wall with my listening spot about 10' in front of that. Which of the Klipsch do you think would do best in my space?

 

In my Experience Cornwalls are not finicky about placement.

 

Both of my listening locations are smaller than yours so even the kg4 can work. But with an area that is larger like yours you might want to move up to a larger speaker like the forte or epic.(the chorus or even quartets would be ok too if you can find those - or also the KLF 20 or 30's). The fortes ( or any of the models with rear passive radiators)will just need a bit more space between themselves and the wall depending on the acoustics of your room for proper bass response. that will require a bit of experimentation from you to see where you like it, Cornwalls can up against the wall if you are able to find a set of those.

 

While I've been leaning towards and working on finding Omega speakers, I keep watching for the Klipsch and at the moment there are several options, though not loving the price points on them. 1973 Cornwalls, 1980s Heresy, and a pair of LaScalas (which are really too big but so beautiful). The Quartets that turned up for sale yesterday are gone already today.

 

I have yet to hear cornwalls but would like to. I have spent a bit of time with heresys powered by an older tube receiver - i cannot remember which brand/ model - to me the older models do lack something on the lower end. I think choruses are considered the nicer model (maybe nicer than fortes? opinions differ everywhere and some of my data comes from spending a fair amount of time in klipsch's forum) and quartets just below them. I also watch craigslist and offerup usually every day to see what goes up for sale . kg4's , near me anyways, are the most plentiful. I dont think ive ever seen a KLF other than a 10 . I would be tempted for a 20 or 30.

 

So a little bit of a solution is starting to take form. I’m looking at a pair of Omega Super 7 XRS which Louis from Omega said would be a great fit for my room. Interestingly, when I mentioned a few amps, it was the BoyuuRange A50 MKIII 300B for which Louis said “I had a customer tell me the combo is so good that he sold off his much more expensive system.” He went on to recommend I get that amp and consider upgrading the 300Bs with the money I would save from others. Still, I wanted to bring the conversation back to amps that would match well with these speakers.

Sensitivity: 94.5 dB at 8 ohms.
Impedance: 8 ohms.
Frequency Response: 38-20kHz.

This is the little list of amps that I’ve put together based on all sorts of recommendations from various reviewers, sites, and of course this thread. The prices on these vary a fair bit but I think all are within striking distance for me.

BoyuuRange A50 MKIII 300B
Declare Zen Triode

the following two seem a little harder to find but also seem to pop up. I am thinking these may be kits? They've been discussed in several different places on forums.
Alan Eaton 2A3
Dennis Haad EL34

I still wondered about the Audio Note OTO Phono SE - too much power?
Same for this? Union Research Simply Italy

A few random things that popped up:

FS: Oliver Sayes Yamamoto A08S Clone W/Upgrades *REDUCED*

2A3 45 SE Stereo Tube Amp Singled Ended hand built Amplifier 6SL7 5Y3

REDUCED Bottlehead Stereomour 2A3 Single-Ended SET Tube Amplifier w/ High-End NOS Tubes

Anyone care to weigh in on any of these and/or add others for consideration with these speakers?

 

Just a few comments. After years of SET/high-efficiency loudspeaker curiosity, I took a chance on Omega's Super 3i's about 4 years ago, knowing full-well they would be a bit bass-shy for my taste. (I'm not a bass head by any means but the importance of that foundation can't be overlooked.) I liked them from the first note and loved them after the requisite break-in time. As expected, they were somewhat bass-shy in my 13' x 18' listening space. Fortunately, I have a couple of subs and a few amps in storage to play around with, allowing for a taste of what's possible with these speakers. After a time and confident I was on the right path, I ordered a Decware SE84UFO. The pairing was everything I'd hoped for but quickly realized this newly found transparency/immediacy laid bare the inadequacy of the subs. So, having already experienced what Louis could do with a 4.5" driver, I placed an order for his DeepHemp 8 subwoofer. Suffice it to say I'll be living with this system for the long-haul. And that's with both Omega's and Decware's entry-level wares. Even if my little SET project had ended in utter failure it was a wonderful eye-opening experience refining my own taste/preferences.

BTW, I listen to a lot of jazz and classic rock and yes, my system can play loud and clear when I want to rock. Best of luck @Go Mifune .. enjoy the ride.

 

The Oto SE is great with mine, I might well have stopped there except that the particular Oto I bought from ebay is almost 20 yrs old, and is in need of a little tlc (someone who wasn't AN seems to have had a go at "improving" things at some point, when things get easier to move around, it'll head back to base for an overhaul). However, the Omega's also play really nicely with an even older marantz 1060, with 30w, and my Tri Corp KT88 amp with about 40w iirc. I've assumed that the speakers demands are so benign that they really only want the first watt or two, but however they do it, it's a remarkable trick. So while I bought them to allow really low power amps, I've been pleasantly surprised that you're really not limited to flea power either. They just work And I suspect they would just work with most of the amps you mention above, and my Line Magnetic arrives on monday, so I'll try & let you know how that goes.

I know we all say "I'm done" at some point, then change everything a year later, but having been round the houses with speakers over the years, in that dept. I really am done, unless I move to a much larger space!

 

I think you are getting hung up on this. With some amps they do not work to their full potential if you are not using a good proportion of available power. This is not the case with SET amps they run at full power all the time.
I have a simply two which is the model before the Italy it is a very good amp I had it driving my 96db horn speakers, I now use a 845 amp rated at 24w a very good combination.

 

This gets a ton of thumbs up for a match with the Omegas. Louis said he's heard raves about the BoyuuRange, but the Decware was the other brand he mentioned as a great match.

@Richard Austen talked about it earlier in this thread and I've looked into it quite a bit and this seems like a really nice piece of gear and as Richard says, it seems to hold its value well.

Thanks. I actually did think tubes needed to be run with more power running through them so this is good to know.

Maybe beyond figuring which amps are good, it would be helpful to figure what might best complement the Omegas. Obviously the question of bass has come up. I, too, suspect I may add subs at some point, but I am going to try without first. Perhaps this should be a consideration in amp choice or at least in tube choice. It also seems that from some reviews and online listening that perhaps some people feel they lack a bit in the sound stage department compared to other speakers. I realize my mileage may vary but I think some of these details could maybe go into picking the right match. And of course those of you that have Omegas, please do tell me where your experience differs from what I've read. I think I've got some decent quality choices but wonder if within that some of the tubes would be a better choice/direction/fit for these. I'll admit I'm less worried about getting this "wrong" because I feel that I'm honing in on some good options. Still, would love to learn from others' experiences and get it as right as possible.

 

Are you using a single sub with your speakers? Is that working out okay for you? What do you do about sub placement with a single?

 

As I get further and further into this process, I keep coming back to your early response about tubes. I had really been hearing a lot about the 300B tubes, but you've got me digging into others. I have been reading a lot of glowing reviews, as you suggested, of the 2a3. Sort of the best of both worlds of the 45 and the 300? Folks seem to claim the 2a3 rounds out the top and bottom ends better. That seems like it would work well with much of what I've read about the Omegas. When I look for 2a3 amps, I'm seeing a lot of kits and a fair number of one off, hand made type things. I assume this could make for a higher risk/reward situation. In many ways this brings back the million dollar question though - do I pick a tube style and find gear that matches? do I pick gear and use the tube style they happen to use? And maybe, should I be honest with myself and say in the $1500 range I'm not likely to get to the level of quality where I'll hear some of the nuance people are discussing? I want to make a good decision and use what I've learned, but I also don't want to drive myself nuts trying to get to some level of perfection that is simply not available (particularly on my budget).

Is there a 2a3 build that you like that could be had in this price range? Are any of the handmade builds worth looking at? Something like this:
2A3 45 SE Stereo Tube Amp Singled Ended hand built Amplifier 6SL7 5Y3

or one I've mentioned before, REDUCED Bottlehead Stereomour 2A3 Single-Ended SET Tube Amplifier w/ High-End NOS Tube
{I should note, I suspect it is a BAD idea for me to get something someone else built since I can't know build quality, BUT it also seems like this is where some of the more interesting 2a3 builds are found.}

@Jim Hodgson made a great comment that has stuck with me. "Yes—for so long as the decision is perceived to include “an infinite number of options,” this is really not decision-making territory. It’s certainly not striking distance." So having honed in on speakers, I find myself now toying with a near infinite number of options for amps. Even as I narrow myself to single ended amps, the range of choices is near endless. I guess I'm at the phase where I have to figure a couple of amps to pick between and make a choice.

 

Yes. After 2 years living with the sub I've yet to be convinced to purchase another. I've had no issues with placement. The DeepHemp 8 is a sealed, down-firing design which, in my experience, is easier to place than front and/or side-firing designs. BTW, even though it's not on Omega's website I believe Louis also makes a sub with a 10" driver.

This has been an interesting thread @Go Mifune which, in ways, reminds me of my own journey down this path. With the myriad of options/opinions I understand the difficulty in choosing gear that you can't audition first. It's a leap of faith to say the least. Price is an obvious issue for many of us but with careful selection and a little patience you can build yourself a wonderfully satisfying system, one that you can build upon as time and finances permit.