Options for entering the tube world

I'll check out the Dynavox. I know Schiit makes a pretty clean little switch too. I also listen to mostly vinyl at home so it may not be an issue.

 

That amp is really tempting me. I've talked to Oliver Sayes who built it. Seems like a really good guy. I love the idea of getting into the 45 tube which I've heard great things about. Being hand made by an individual can be suspect, but Oliver's work does get some good reviews.

Has anyone here had an experience with his work directly?

 

Alas, this has sold. His work really does look great.

 

My stock answer for the best tubed preamp/amp in the $1500 range is the Rogue Cronus Magnum. You can't go wrong with Rogue. Designer/owner Mark O'Brian and his small crew that hand assemble these amps are just fantastic people. They stand by their products, and the products last a long time. They walk that fine line tonally between warmth and accuracy, and his designs respond to tube rolling. When you are ready to move on, you can likely sell it for what you paid (buying used).

I would stay away from Schitt tube stuff. Stay away from brands that dabble. Schitt is 90% marketing.

 

They are nice amps but it seems like it wouldn't be the best fit for the Omega speakers, would it?

 

I sort of had my say much earlier in the thread, so I didn’t expect to jump back in. But, you just got a little too close to the near and dear...

I’ve known Oliver for years (we both live in Brooklyn). And so yes, of course I’ve heard his amplifiers. Most recent was just prior to the NYC shutdown when he loaned me a single-ended 71A amplifier with vintage Sansui output transformers. Absolutely lovely. (But don’t get any ideas: you’re not going to power anything with 3/4 of a watt.)

Of course I get the “can be suspect” point about “being hand made by an individual.” And yet sometimes it’s appropriate to replace “can be suspect” in that sentence with “can be exquisite.” In this case, you can rest assured that you’re dealing with equal parts artist and craftsman guided by a deep love of audio (and not commerce) with all the integrity you could hope for. With that, you can also rest assured that you’ll be getting the kind of bespoke amplifier that most of us can’t even dream about because most of us don’t even know what that means. (Lots of guys drive Porsches and will tell you they’re the best; how many guys drive Formula 1 cars?)

Speaking of the 45, Oliver’s mainstays are clones of the Korneff 45 and the Yamamoto A-08 45 amplifiers. I’ve never heard Oliver’s versions of these, mostly because I‘ve always owned an original Korneff 45, which I bought directly from Jeff 20+ years ago. As an aside, I sort of laughed when the current budget of $1500 came with apologies. That’s right around what Jeff was charging when I bought mine. And if you offered me $10K for it tonight, I’d decline. What price for magic?

Speaking of price, I’m not sure who argued that it’s necessary for a single-ended amplifier to be expensive. Maybe in the high-end retail world of lifestyle audio ... but that’s the kind of thing that gets those people off. There are better people out there—with more legit priorities. People who know it’s all about a killer circuit and an even more killer pair of output transformers. And that leather interiors don’t count for anything. How much does all of this need to cost? I’m sure Oliver can get you where you need to be on a $1.5K budget—maybe with a couple of regrets, but definitely no apologies. Meaning silver output transformers and teflon capacitors are out; otherwise, most reasonable options are probably in.

Before getting too carried away, though, we should recognize that staking it all on a couple of watts or less is a pretty big gamble. I mean, if you want a 45 amp, you’ve got to really want a 45 amp. It sounds like speakers are already on order—and not necessarily in view of such low power. That’s something to work out with a speaker designer (if not a priest). Either way, there are other options; I remember Terry Cain saying something wonderful about triodes years ago: “None is perfect, all are tasty ... and I always find my way back to the 2A3.” He was right—another tube of incomparable beauty (and a little more power).

This is workable, and so no doubt the effort will pay off. As long as the explorations have started, let them continue...

 

This is actually how I feel, too. The more I investigate, the more I feel that some of the real gems out there are built by people with a passion for audio. I had the pleasure of talking to Oliver a bit and he seems to be a great guy. I am quite tempted to just have him build me an amp, though I'd have to wait for it.

The speakers are on order and I'm quite excited by them. They are 95 or so db with a single driver design. I believe these speakers are known for working with with low power amps. That being said, you're speaking to one of the tricky things about this process for me. I've not had a full range of experience with these tubes and what I have heard has been on different systems at different times so it is somewhat hard to compare. I've heard the 300b and 2a3 and both were gorgeous. Hearing all the talk of how beautiful the 45 sounds and then finding Oliver whose 45s supposedly put out a touch more power than most, I found myself interested. I think my overall search has remained more focused on the 2a3 or 300b but there is another of those Oliver 45s out there used that I've got my eye on. I should probably reach out to Louis from Omega speakers to see what he thinks about the 45 and its ability to run the speakers though...

 

So, everyone still paying attention, I made a decision! It is one I suspect (as always) some will disagree with.

Omega Speakers. Jr alnico XRS (in ebony).

Oliver Sayes is building me a fresh Yamamoto A08s clone based on the 45 tube with a few upgrades.

Personally I'd say the biggest risk I've taken is on overall power, though Oliver said he knows of several others with Omega speakers who say his 45 is a great match. Also, I really am not a high volume listener at home. I still suspect I will add a sub or two to the set up, but want to hear it before I jump there. I suspect the powered subs would not only add some low end, but add a little extra punch to the whole presentation.

Looking back over this thread, I could see how folks would think I'm nuts. I went from talking about buying some used Klipsch and a Chinese made tube amp du jour to purchasing highly niche single driver speakers and an extremely low watt hand built SET tube amp. No matter the path, I think the destination is right and you all helped me get there. As we discussed things in this process I kept coming back to the times I had listened to the kind of ridiculous systems that for me are merely a pipe dream. Systems that are as expensive as my house was. And it was never a sense of overwhelming power that I loved, but rather a delicate nuance of the music coming to life. A staging and presence and depth and clarity that felt different than anything else I have heard. I similarly realized that I what I was selfishly looking for was a critical listening system that I could dig into my music in a whole new way; not a way to rock out in my basement. So as we talked this back and forth, as I discussed these same things on other forums, as I talked to friends I know with audiophile obsessions, I realized that the magic I was looking for lived somewhere in that little niche world. The descriptions of the Omegas spoke to what I had trouble articulating about wanting. Similarly, as each amp felt questionable and off or close but not quite right; the Oliver Sayes jumped out at me instantly.

It may be odd to say that the persons behind the gear influenced my decisions when it should be all about sound, but I think it is true. When I spoke to Louis about his speakers, I got a sense that he understood what I was yearning for. I felt his attention to detail was perfect for my sensibilities and his openness to talk and discuss and share made him feel like someone I could trust. He even upgraded my cabinets for me because that's the kind of guy he is. For that matter, he was equally helpful when I was considering one of his speakers used. Not once did he push me towards new instead. When I first was drawn to Oliver's amp and a few people started to pop up saying nice things, I reached out. Again discussing used pieces, he was as helpful as if I were buying from him directly. He talked back and forth about my speakers and about his amps. When I told him the used one sold, he was disappointed for me. My conversations with him led me to trust him to build a great amp and about how his amp has played with the Omega speakers for others.

I'm a guy who tries to arm myself with as much info as possible and then I go on gut instinct with things like this. If somehow I got it wrong, I think I could get out from under this gear pretty easily. And for the level of quality I'm getting, these are actually quite reasonably priced pieces. Something feels perfectly right about this combo for this guy at this point in his listening life.

I've long had a plan to set up whatever system I got (even when I thought Klipsch) and put on a pristine vinyl copy I bought of Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert for just this purpose. I cannot wait to hear his playing, but also his vocalizations coming to life in front of me. I expect that no matter what, that will be magical. I may find some limitations when I try to rock out, but I can't imagine that first experience being anything but bliss.

I'm thick skinned and confident in my decision, so don't hesitate to comment as you wish. I think this thread is bigger than me and others may be on a similar path but want to come to a different result. I've said it already but I want to again say thank you. You've all indulged me and provided me with endless guidance and it is really appreciated. Now the wait is going to be brutal...

 

I also thought I'd make some comments on some others I spoke to in this process. There were others I didn't feel so good about but these all deserved mention.

Omega Speakers - Louis is amazing. Omega Speaker Systems

Oliver Sayes - Sonic_Oli on audiomart and ebay. I obviously can't say enough good things about him. Lots of people sing his praises. his amps are ridiculously reasonable price wise. Lots of people spoke of that being a focus of his.

Radu - another custom builder that gets lots of praise. hist stuff looks amazing. Super responsive. seems to really work in a higher price point, though. He was talking around $4000 as a reasonable starting point. Stuff For Sale and Feedback

Analog Ethos - this guy was super responsive and seems amazingly nice. Louis recommended his gear. looks gorgeous to me. https://www.analogethos.com/ae1c

Auric Audio - less experience with them but they were recommended and their gear looks super interesting. Aric Audio Systems - Tube Gear

Decware - seemed really nice and were rather prompt in returning my email. not as engaging as some of the others on the list, though. very long wait list.DECWARE USA MADE TUBE AMPLIFIERS w/ LIFETIME WARRANTY

Goldprint Audio - recommended here. imports line magnetic to U.S. Taylor responded right away and was super helpful. Goldprint Audio- DeVore Fidelity, Line Magnetic, KEF, PS Audio, Bel Canto, Leben, Rogue Audio, Manley Labs, Joseph Audio, Cary Audio, Rega, Kimber Kable, VPI

 

Congrats! Should be a killer system for you. Even if it doesn't end up being to your liking, you should be able to sell the speakers and/or amp without losing too much money (I bet you could easily get back 90% on either, which is essentially a 10% restocking fee), and I think you'd still be glad you tasted what this kind of system has to offer. But I hope you like it and get many years of enjoyment out of it.

If you do find the Sayes/Omega combo isn't cutting it for you (though I think it will), I'd recommend giving the Omegas a 2nd chance with slightly more power. Not much, but a few more watts might help. Also keep a sub or two in mind down the road.

If you don't mind me asking, what's the eta on the amp?

 

Not at all. He didn't really give me an exact time frame. He originally said he was building another one in December/January and I could put my name on it. He then wrote me back and said he found one that was half finished and he could get it to me sooner and I jumped on it without asking details. Not sure how much sooner sooner is, but I'm okay witih whatever that looks like.

Louis at Omega said he's usually about 6 weeks out but may be a touch earlier than that. Hopefully both should be done in at least a similar time frame.

I completely agree on giving the Omegas a fair shake. And I'm going to give it all quite a while to settle in before I make any changes. I know both the speakers and tubes will be well served with some time up and running. I basically plan on adding subs and almost did off the bat but decided to take it in stages so I could hear the changes. And of course maybe they get into my room and are what I'm looking for from the start. If overall volume feel is an issue, even with the addition of subs, I'd accept that it is the amp and choose another amp long before I give up on the Omegas. There were lots of higher powered amps of interest to me. Even the 300b would add a fair bit of oomph beyond where I'm starting and still be a pretty sexy choice. I really feel confident it will be a great match and a nice first leap into the tube world, though. Whether or not it proves perfect for the long haul, I'm extremely excited for now.

 

Congrats! You've certainly made great choices. Best.

 

I think you chose a nice combination for yourself.

Single driver speakers are a perfect pairing with low power single ended amps.

It is really all about the midrange. I feel confidant that you will discover this for yourself.

 

You are not nuts, you made a decision up above what I recommended. You will not be disappointed. And, you never go back to solid-state.

 

I wouldn’t worry about that for a second. No doubt we’re well into takes-one-to-know-one territory, here.

I sort of hesitate to stir this anymore given how fragile this part of the decision-making process can be. This is unlikely to rock things out of place, though. And I’d feel a little guilty not mentioning it and possibly having you miss the opportunity.

Because the 45 and the 2A3 are electrically quite similar, many single-ended amplifiers intended for one can be used with the other. In particular, same UX4 socket and same filament voltage eliminate what otherwise would have been real challenges. So long as the power transformer can accommodate the 2A3’s 2.5A heater current, you’re not far from home.

There isn’t a single circuit that’s optimal for both output tubes, but the concept of the switch predates even these ancient triodes. I think the kosher way to get from 45 to 2A3 would be to roughly double the plate current and halve the load resistance. (Sometimes this can even be approximated with a rectifier change.) Of course you could refine it further, but those are the biggest issues.

You might ask Oliver how well he thinks the 2A3 plays in his Yamamoto A-08S. (I’d be very surprised if he’s never tried it.) So long as the power transformer is up to it, adding the switching capacity I mentioned should not be that challenging or expensive. At the very least, it would give you a second flavor. And if you could really optimize 2A3 operation, you might be in a position to double your power at the change of a tube and the flick of a switch. From Scarlatti to Skynyrd just like that.

There’s even a third option. I know that Oliver is very familiar with the 46, which is a weird and wonderful “dual-grid” output tube fully sanctioned for Class A triode use when the grid nearer to the plate is tied to the plate—which we can do by using a cheap adapter socket. (Or maybe Oliver knows a better way.) At that point, the 46 starts to look a lot like the 45. Even lower powered, though—and possibly even more beautiful? (Jeez ... what could be more perfect than perfect?)

Good lord, the dude is totally ruined now. @Go Mifune you won’t see double-digit watts again until you’re ready to see quadruple-digit volts.

 

This stuff is gold. Thank you!! I would think I could start where I am and shift if needed, but maybe I should mention this to Oliver to see if there are things I should have him do now that would facilitate this. It would be lovely to have the option if it didn't come at the expense of sound quality.

I've certainly accepted that I'm pointing this in a different direction than being a "rocking" system but I do think what you bring up is worth considering. Even if I'm thrilled at first without that, I might miss it down the line.

I love that I now have to go look into what sort of high voltage amps exist because that's something that's new to me. The rabbit hole is more of a rabbit maze.

And yeah. I can't wait to get the amp in my hands, but I'm pretty sure what was always a love of tube amps and great audio gear is going to become a full on obsession.

 

now for some tube music

 

I think this thread really embodies everything that is right with this hobby. A ton of research and discussion, and ultimately taking a calculated gamble with a lesser known speaker and a bespoke amplifier. How cool is that? I hope it all works out, but even if it doesn't, you will inevitably get back on the horse and figure out the next game plan. It's all good, clean fun. Thanks to the OP for sharing.

 

Really could be a whole other thread, but I posed a question to friends - - what is the first album you play on a new audiophile system? As I mentioned, my plan is Keith Jarrett's The Koln Concert. A good friend always turns to Toto IV.

 

Just got a message from Louis at Omega. I had already made the leap with the amp so thank goodness, but here's what he had to say about the combo.

"They are 95 dB and a very easy impedance too. 45's are one of my favorite tubes. I would go for it, and you'll be very happy with the sound."

I'm now just giddy and can't hardly wait the six weeks until this all comes together.

 

Well said. Yes the 2A3.

 

May I make a suggestion. Learn basic tube equipment survival skills. Tube amps tend to need more user involvement with their best function. Tubes need replacing sometime, learn how to know when your tubes need attention and replacement. How to know when you need service. This will help you keep your tube amp investment reliable and making music for you. A tube tester of good quality, how to use it, is helpful, how to do basic troubleshooting, priceless.

 

Congrats on the Yamamoto clone. I quite enjoyed a session with one in Hong Kong. The dealer I bought my LM 219IA carries Yamamoto. Should be nice with the Omega speakers.

EDIT: I may have missed it, but what will you be using as a preamp. This is usually the more critical part of amplification.

 

Any recommendations on where to learn or a preferred tube tester? (of course I'll dig around the internet, but just saying, favorite books or sites or...?)

 

Look on the tube audio forums. The usual creme de la creme is the Hickok mutual conductance testers, but other good testers are out there. An emissions tester is less useful for our purposes than a dynamic or mutual conductance tester. Also, making sure your tester is testing your tubes at working voltages expected of your tubes in normal service in your equipment is very wise. Some basic know how and troubleshooting and minor repair will make you a happier tube amp owner. It will help keep you playing music. And reduce downtime and keep repair costs less expensive. AudioKarma's tube forums, the Antique Radio Forums, are some good places to learn and ask questions.