Orignial tapes: three-track vs. two-track & Beatles At The Bowl tape

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Paul Chang, Jan 31, 2002.

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  1. Paul Chang

    Paul Chang Forum Old Boy, Former Senior Member Has-Been Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vale of Sands, The Golden State
    Orignial tapes: three-track vs. two-track

    Steve,

    How different is it between working with three-track original tapes and two-track? My intuitive and uneducated guess is that it requires more work to make a stereo master from three-track original than from two-track. Could you elaborate on this?

    Does it make any sense (technically, not marketably) to produce stereo/three-channel SACDs (dual-layer?) or DVD-As from three-track original tapes, then play them back in a sound system with three full range loudspeakers? (This will probably be rejected by the mass market because the center speaker is going to block the TV.:( )
     
    Paul Chang, Jan 31, 2002
    #1
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Well, a two-track tape IS a master. A three-track can be of two types, depending on the original engineer and studio:

    First type: Unmixed at all, like a 24 track or any other multi-track. In other words, nothing is at a correct level for a transfer, no echo, EQ or compression on the tape, and one has to actually mix it to sound right. Some early Capitol's are like this.

    Second type: An already mixed three-track. Example: "Strangers In The Night" by Frank Sinatra or almost anything else from United or Western. Mixed onto the three-track with all the compression, echo and level adjustments right on the tape. All one would have to do is turn the three pots up to "zero" and hit play. It's already mixed. See?

    So, type I, the tapes need to be remixed to stereo for mastering. Type II, the three-track can be used for mastering directly if needed.

    I would imagine a great surround mix could be made with a three-track tape, as long as nothing was expected from the back but natural room ambience.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Feb 1, 2002
    #2
  3. Paul Chang

    Paul Chang Forum Old Boy, Former Senior Member Has-Been Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vale of Sands, The Golden State
    Steve,

    Thank you for enlightening me on this. So there is no such thing as an unmixed two-track original tape. Please forgive my ignorance.

    Do you think the front channel speakers in a home theater system can do the job for a 3-channel mix? The center speaker's design (geared toward reproducing the dialogs on soundtracks) and its placement (on top of a TV) seem inadequate.

    I was definitely not asking about a 5-channel surround mix. I certainly don't want to have Frank Sinatra:confused: , Judy Garland, Mariah Carey or even Britney Spears sit on my lap singing (I can tolerate it if Jennifer Lopez is doing the sitting;) .), and the band play around us like a mariachi. (I actually like mariachi bands, but not in my listening room.:) )
     
    Paul Chang, Feb 1, 2002
    #3
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Paul, there IS such a thing as a two-channel unmixed tape I guess. Early stereo twin-track recordings and of course Beatles and other Parlophone goodies from 1963 count. But they usually are the exception.

    Front channel speakers? THE DEVIL! Not for music reproduction. I mean, if you wanted to do it that way: Left Center and Right speakers for L/C/R three-channel tapes, ALL THREE SPEAKERS WOULD HAVE TO MATCH! Then, I guess it would sound pretty groovy.....:)
     
    Steve Hoffman, Feb 1, 2002
    #4
  5. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    Steve,

    Just curious...it seems I read where the Beatles Hollywood Bowl concerts were 3 track. George Martin wanted the instruments on two of them and vocals on one so he could move up the vocals in the mixing process but the Capitol recording engineers used the three tracks differently.

    Brian



    :)
     
    btomarra, Feb 1, 2002
    #5
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    So much bleed through on the tapes that the channels are just a mismash of sound. What John Kraus was TRYING to do, was get the drums and Paul's bass on one channel (standard LA recording studio deal to get the bass the drums to sound good together) and the guitars on one channel with all the vocals on a third.

    I think it was pretty much chaos there. What the engineers didn't count on during a run down, was the screaming, which drove the VU meters into the red, even though the audience wasn't miked. Of course, the Beatles' instruments were played louder during the actual show, driving the portable compresser insane. Total overload!
     
    Steve Hoffman, Feb 1, 2002
    #6
  7. Angel

    Angel New Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, Ca.
    Sounds like you had information from someone who was there Steve. Neat! Did you ever hear the raw tapes?

    Another reason that this Forum is so amazing.
     
    Angel, Feb 1, 2002
    #7
  8. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    Here's a 2 part Radio Special that features George Martin and a radio DJ talking about "Hollywood Bowl" and what the tapes were like.

    Now, please understand poor George does forget details like which songs are on what Beatles UK Lp. Lots of great information on the background of Martin and some other stories that will sound familiar. If not, all the better!

    Please use real player, as the tracks will play automatically as long as you have version G2 or later. Download the free player from www.real.com

    The show is split into two parts. The 1st one is about 1/2 hour, the second is about 10-15 min. I posted this for you SH members! Try it out! It will stream, so even for dialup users, it should play right away.

    Part 1
    Part 2

    If there's any curiosity about the Hollywood Bowl stuff, George tells the tale. Great stuff.
     
    Sckott, Feb 1, 2002
    #8
  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    It's funny how half of the songs George mentions for PPM aren't actually on that album...:)

    Plus, I can never understand why he had so many problems finding a 3-track machine. It's not as if they are that uncommon! Hell, people still use them today for reissue projects...
     
    lukpac, Feb 2, 2002
    #9
  10. John Oteri

    John Oteri New Member In Memoriam

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Wow. What a great thread!
     
    John Oteri, Mar 8, 2002
    #10
  11. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-)

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    Yeah Steve! What she said! EMWTK!
     
    Holy Zoo, Mar 8, 2002
    #11
  12. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I had to look that up, Zoo. EMWTK, sheesh.

    Well, yes I heard them on a field trip to Capitol in 1977. How did they sound? Pretty much like the released versions, but not as COMPRESSED, or EQ'D or ECHOED.

    In other words, a more raw, dynamic sound. Kind of like a punk rock recording. IMO, much better that way than what was released.
     
    Steve Hoffman, Mar 9, 2002
    #12
  13. John Oteri

    John Oteri New Member In Memoriam

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Wow, that sounds great. My Capitol LP sounds pretty bad. Why couldn't they have just left the tapes alone? :(
     
    John Oteri, Mar 9, 2002
    #13
  14. Vivaldinization

    Vivaldinization Active Member

    Haven't we heard the raw-ish tapes, though? Isn't that what's on the Midnight Beat set? Sounds pretty raw to me.

    -D
     
    Vivaldinization, Mar 9, 2002
    #14
  15. FabFourFan

    FabFourFan Senior Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Same here!

    When I crank those cds up (especially the 1965 shows), it sure feels like the real thing to me.

    You can actually hear the band 'working' the volume of the performance for musical effect. It's thrilling!! :cool:

    In other words, the Midnight Beat set is one that can be recommended without reservation!
     
    FabFourFan, Mar 9, 2002
    #15
  16. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Me wanna hear 'em!
     
    Steve Hoffman, Mar 9, 2002
    #16
  17. John Carsell

    John Carsell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northwest Illinois
    The Hollywood Bowl concerts need to come out on CD. But done the right way.

    1. NO NO NO to No noise and Peter Mew.

    2. Don't EQ and compress the living guts out of the sound.

    3. Don't edit out all the original stage dialogue, it just dilutes the whole experience. (If any of you have ever heard bootlegs of these shows, you'll know what I mean.)

    4. The mastering needs Steve's "breath of life".

    EMI ya hear me?

    By the way, The live "Baby's In Black" on the Real Love CD single didn't sound that bad at all to me.
     
    John Carsell, Mar 9, 2002
    #17
  18. FabFourFan

    FabFourFan Senior Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    If you still need these, please just tell me where to mail it and I'll send you a cdr of both original cds, with pleasure.
     
    FabFourFan, Mar 10, 2002
    #18
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Thanks, FFF!
     
    Steve Hoffman, Mar 10, 2002
    #19
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