Ortofon 2M black: thin sound, lacking power in the low region

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by giacomus, Jun 17, 2019.

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  1. giacomus

    giacomus Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Italy
    Hello everyone there!

    I'm Giacomo from Italy.

    My setup is made up of GYRO SE, Ortofon 2M Black, SME 309 and Lehmann audio Black Cube SE as phono preamp. Sound is then delivered to a paif of B&W 803D2 through classé pre/power amps.

    Especially in recent issues/reissues, when I compare the sound of vinyl to the digital counterpart, I experience a thin sound from the vinyl, lack of bass, energy. I have lots of details on the highs, but really little weight in the bass. This applies to most of the recent vinyl issues (contemporary electronic, rock) as well as classic reissues (Dire Straits on every street or brothers in arms just to quote a couple of them). I know it may be not proper to compare the two sources in these terms, where digital has bigger potentialities.

    But maybe some of You have already run into this. I just suspect the modern vinyl pressings are not so accurate, and this may be the reason of such a disappointing comparison.

    Any suggestions?

    One more detail: I've applied the curve in the attached picture to the Lehmann Audio Preamp in order to avoid major subwoofer pumping during playback. I will try to get rid of the bass attenuation but I remember from my former preamp (Copland CTA 305 valve control amp) that the "thin bass" issue was there too!

    Thank you all, Bye!
     
    GyroSE and geodiak like this.
  2. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident

    Did you try different Input Impedance settings? You should find a selector for 100 Ohms, 470 Ohms or 47K Ohms on the unit.

    Perhaps the internal Low Frequency Roll-Off jumpers are set at too high a frequency, robbing you of low frequency impact. Try adjusting the jumpers to allow more low frequency to pass.

    Finally, some owners report a required 100 hour break-in period.

    More info here -> https://www.lehmannaudio.com/assets...udiovideo_10_2006_black_cube_se_screen_01.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  3. Tartifless

    Tartifless Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    First, you need to remove the bass roll-off jumpers from the BC.

    after there are many factors:
    - cables
    - cart alignment (shibata tip is sensitive to alignment) and VTA

    How comfortable are you with alignment ?
    Can you try other RCA cables ?
     
  4. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Interesting... Why would a phono stage have a bass roll off jumper?
     
  5. Ontheone

    Ontheone Poorly Understood Member

    Location:
    Indianapolis
    I agree that the setup or impedance loading probably needs to be adjusted. However, I will say that I used to have a 2M Bronze that I traded towards a DV xx2 MKII (massive improvement!). To me the 2M Bronze had many of the same sonic issues the OP has described, even when dialed in correctly - it sounded thin quite and 2-dimensional. The Bronze uses a Nude Fine Line with a frequency response of 20-29K Hz and the Black uses a nude Shibata with a response up 31K Hz. Other than this, every other spec is the same so I'd expect a similar voicing which just didn't appeal to me.
     
  6. Ontheone

    Ontheone Poorly Understood Member

    Location:
    Indianapolis
    I know some phono stages have jumpers to engage a subsonic filter that filter out frequencies below ~20Hz.
     
  7. Tartifless

    Tartifless Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    3 | Bass_L/Bass_R
    These jumpers activate the soft bass roll-off filter to prevent membrane flutter
    when playing back warped records. The cut-off frequency is 50 Hz,
    the filter slope is 6 dB/oct. These jumpers are not activated at delivery.
     
  8. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I always found the Black was thin when set up perfectly level. The bottom comes in if you lower the arm a tiny bit. It likes to a tad tail down.
     
    cporcp and Sterling1 like this.
  9. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    My general understanding is that the Black is pretty finicky about setup. I had a 2M Blue that I never could get to sound right. I switched to Audio Technica carts and I'm really happy with them.
     
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  10. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    The Ortofon OM and 2M cartridges are quite linear in frequency response compared to many other cartridges. The loading should be around 150-200 pF and 38-42 kOhm, and if this is not the case, you may end up with peaking in the 8-20 kHz region.

    Also, several other cartridges have dips in the 3-8 kHz region which makes them more kind to the ears, and you may then end up listening to these at a higher volume. This in turn gives relative more weight in the bass. Other than that the 2M line reportedly have high output and this MAY cause clipping in the phono stage, and this in turn may cause a thinner sound.
     
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  11. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    If you create a very linear cart just for the sake of it being linear, but it's a pain in the butt to work with, which means that it may not sound that great if it's not perfect, then isn't Ortofon just missing the point?

    I sometimes have to work with engineers that are always trying to build designs that are optimized "on paper", but the reality is that they don't work that well (if at all) in the real world.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  12. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Cut off frequency is defined as the -3db point, so the first thing I would do is remove it if it's really at 50hz. Secondly, I find the Shibata shines a spotlight on the treble, so I would consider the Bronze instead. Either that or a different cartridge altogether.
     
  13. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    I think they work well using proper loading, but preferences vary. I prefer the Shure V15V/JICO due to low distortion/better tracking/better channel balance and crosstalk compared to the OM40. But I find the OM10-40 good at 150-200 pF/38-42 kOhm loading. Below is a test comparing the 2M to the MP11. As seen the 2M show an increasing frequency response curve that probably is a bit bright. The MP11 shows a clear dip in the 3-10 kHz range at the same loading, but adding +400 pF solves that. Thus if you would compare them using the same loading, you will find that these cartridges sound quite different. But if you would compare them using optimum load, there may not be much that differ in terms of brightness.

    https://www.ortofon.com/media/147241/2M Red and Blue HiFi World 05-2007.pdf
     
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  14. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Every cart brand/model has its quirks. No getting around that. Until cart manufacturers start bundling carts with perfectly matched and loaded phono preamps, some degree of fine tuning is going to be needed for a lot of cartridges out there. It also doesn't help that some folks insist on using certain phono preamps that are far from accurate in terms of FR/RIAA correction, have too much capacitance, etc. Not saying that is OP here, but it is a general issue.
     
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  15. GyroSE

    GyroSE Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    If I were you I would consider to look for a nice MC cart as your vinyl rig really is up for the task to handle a high quality MC. As an example Benz Micro Ace would give you lots of good bass, the Gyro SE, SME 309 and Benz Micro Ace would be a very well balanced combination IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  16. G B Kuipers

    G B Kuipers Forum Resident

    Location:
    Netherlands
    Don't let anyone persuade you to go cart shopping. The Black has powerful bass, if aligned right, and provided it's on the recording of course.

    I'd search for the solution in alignment and/or capacitance loading. Also try different gain settings on your BC.
     
  17. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    I have my Concorde Pro S 40 (same as the OM 40, but the integrated design) at 47k ohms and about 260 pF and it sounds pretty neutral, for what it's worth.

    I had a 2M Bronze previously, and in my experience the Pro S 40 tracks much better. Ortofon's own specs bear that out. Channel separation isn't quite what I get from other cartridges, but it's still quite good. My Stanton 98x series cartridges track better, but the Pro S 40 comes in second in that category out of the 5 cartridges I own. I much prefer it to the 2M series, and I think the OM are technically superior -- and cheaper. I haven't tried a Super OM, but wouldn't mind trying it one of these days.
     
  18. giacomus

    giacomus Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Italy
    Hi everyone and thanks for your numerous suggestions.
    The bass cut off applied setting on the Black Cube is to avoid extreme subwoofer pumping (room correction subs) produced by any record. The attenuation is the lowest possible, less than 2dB @30Hz, -1dB @45Hz.
    As to the cartridge alignment, I spent days checking and double checking, it's now perfectly aligned horizontally according to the SME 309 instructions and alignment tool.
    If lowering the arm in turn produces loss on the highs, then probably it's not what I want either.
    Actually, several records play with a very good balance. Actually, the vinyls that moved me to open this thread contain good bass information, as long as you do not compare them with their digital version. That's where vinyl cannot stand the competition.
    Considering several recordings do not overly suffer from this, the most affected ones being current pressings, I was just blaming the pressing itself. And wondering if some of You have had the same experience.
    I think many of these days' pressings do not care too much about the result in order to be as cheaper as possible, this applying especially for minor labels.
    I will check the capacitance seen by the cartridge and also try removing the bass cut off.
    My previous preamp, the copland CTA 305, didn't have any bass equalisation but surely the issue was there.
     
  19. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    The newer records have many problems, they don't always sound bad but they tend to be lifeless. One thing they tend to have in common is that in lots of cases the bass is actually much more exaggerated than on earlier records and generally the highs and mids tend to be subdue. It's been while since I've heard the black, I didn't think it lacked bass but I could be wrong.

    I do however have your same phono stage which I've just replaced this week. I think it is a great phono stage but after comparing it with many the thing I would criticize it's the lack of bass.
    You will not find capacitance adjustment, all the dip switches for that cartridge should be in the off position. Internally, I would get rid of the jumpers for the bass filter, there are also two other jumpers that add 10db gain you should try those on and off and see whether they make a difference. If you don't find the manual I've got mine handy and can tell which ones they are.
    Finally as someone else suggested I would try different interconnects, I am not a cable maniac but when you deal with such low voltages cables can sometimes make a very noticeable difference and besides good quality you must use very short cables, how long are they?
     
  20. giacomus

    giacomus Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Italy
    Thanks @Uglyversal, so you recommend disabling even the first level bass cut.. hmm I'm scared watching the subwoofers moving subsonically so much... anyway, the input capacitance can be adapted adding capacitors inside the black cube.
    The RCA cable from the black cube SE to the LINE preamp is a few bucks: I don't believe it can make a difference in the low frequencies. An upgrade is foreseen by the way.
    The tonearm cable to the black cube is the default one provided by SME.
    I started with the +10dB gain engaged but then I turned it off, the output from 2M black is 5mV. I had to keep the volume very low on the Line amp and, at the same time, I had the impression of too much compression during loud passages.
     
  21. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Hello gio!
    I had a black cube se-ii and used the bass roll off filters - they actually tightened the bass and did not affect the amount of bass at all- when running an Ortofon 2M black.
    *make sure all four switches are down and the gain jumper is not enabled.
    *make sure your cable from table to phono preamp is as short and low capacitance. i use the ART POP 0.5m cable as linked below- a high end bargain by any definition. this is a valuable piece of the fix for more bass.
    *VTA- experiment with VTA. try to raise and lower the tail in 1/2mm increments. The 2M defiitely has a sweet spot. mine was level + 1/2mm.

    I bet the cable from turntable to preamp is your issue. Get this one, it is a low cost winner.


    KAB Electro Acoustics http://www.kabusa.com
     
  22. giacomus

    giacomus Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Italy
    Hello, thanks @avanti1960
    Yes, I've now checked. The input capacitance of the Black cube is 100pF and the cable capacitance is 140pF that makes a total of 240pF that's within the 2M black load capacitance spec (100-300pF).
    As you said, I disabled the +10dB gain jumper, there was too much gain, I'm glad you agree.
    hmm changing the VTA... I think there is a compromise and if bass increase then high decrease... or maybe only high decrease thus giving an impression of more overall bass? There is too huge a difference between the vinyls I got in my mind and their digital counterparts (or sources, let's say...)
     
  23. daytona600

    daytona600 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Check Capacitance of your phono cable for best results
    Dial in VTA for best results
     
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  24. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Just to remember the resistance is also important. While 240 pF is ok but a bit on the high side (150-200 is ideal) you also need to lower the resistance to 38-42 kOhm. Or 33 kOhm as a previous poster did.

    Ortofon 2M Black - frequency response charts
     
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  25. Tartifless

    Tartifless Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    I don't see why anyone would activate the soft bass roll-off on the BC when Lehmann does not activate it by default and when they explicitly put in the manual that this should be used only in rare cases.

    I have never activated those and never had an issue with bass whatsoever.
     
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