Ortofon 2M Blue... cartridge body dragging?

Hello all,

I'm wonder if anyone has had an issue with the back of a Ortofon 2M Blue dragging against the vinyl at the beginning of each side.

This has happened to me now with two separate turntables (Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and Pioneer PL-530). It seems to be related to how flat a record is (sorry, some stuff is too rare to be guaranteed a perfectly flat copy) but has happened with LPs where, if there is a warp, it's relatively minor.

There's exactly once mention of this problem online and in that case, the consensus seemed to be that the suspension had collapsed. But I've had this problem twice now with brand new cartridges. I trust the place that's installing them for me and part of the issue is maybe that you can only adjust these two turntables so much?

At this point I've just decided that me + this cartridge is a cursed combination, so going to give up on them once and for all. It struck me as strange, though, that I've had this happen in two separate instances, and then could find only that one other mention of it online.

Best,

WJ

 

The 2M Series ride low to begin with. There have also been reports of defects on this series over the last year or two, and collapsed suspensions are one of them. Likely they are pumping out too many of these cartridges and defects are going up.

 

It could also be that the vertical tracking angle is set so low that the cartridge is too tail-down. A slightly worn or slightly out-of-spec cantilever suspension should still work perfectly well as long as VTA isn't too low.

The OP doesn't mention how long he has been using the cartridge. Eventually, at a thousand or more hours of play or so, sometimes earlier, a stylus wears out and a suspension begins to fail.

Cartridge suspensions can also fail prematurely because of excessive vertical tracking force.

If the cartridge was purchased new and if it turns out the suspension is faulty, the dealer can replace it under warranty (and it shouldn't cost the dealer anything either). Ortofon stands behind its products and will usually always make good on a cart that has a factory defect.

 

Yeah, I know it rides low, which is why I'm surprised this hasn't been noted elsewhere as a (potential) problem.

Good to know about the defects, I guess it could have happened to me twice? Or maybe the Pro-Ject was just a bad fit because of how hard it is to adjust the VTA on it? But it comes with a 2M Red on it, right? So who knows?!?!

Regardless, I'm going to bring it back into the shop and see if they can find anything wrong with it, and if not, just give up on the 2M Blue.

 

I said several times that these were brand new cartridges. So even if the VTF were off—which I'm not sold on, seeing as the shop is reputable and it's happened twice now—it wouldn't have already collapsed the suspension.

Like I said, I guess I'll just see what the shop says. But I'm worried I'm looking to look a bit nuts here... whatever, comes with the territory!

 

Those PJ turntables were designed so that the 2M series would fit exactly. VTA adjustment shouldn't have anything to do with it. 2 defects in a row is very bad luck, but possible.

How bad are the warps we are talking about? Pictures?

 

Did you check your VTF with a digital scale? Many people think they are using the counterweight correctly but they are not.

 

Some are quite noticeable, others I wasn't even aware of it until I looked really closely because of the dragging. The weirdest part is that it's played some very noticeably warped records just fine.

Two defects in a row seems unlikely. And it sounds like even a bad shop couldn't get the setup wrong, at least on the Pro-Ject. I guess it's just a few fluke warps of a certain variety.... but nobody on the internet has had this happen before?

 

How are they using it incorrectly?

 

A bad edge warp can make some low-rider carts drag. Take your cart and records to the shop, have them assess and watch what they do. If your cart is defective and under warranty ask for a warranty claim. If it's the records you'll have to see about de-warping them using a record flattener like a Vinyl Flat or one of those megabuck machines from Japan. Or just find better copies of those records. Edge warps can be difficult to fix.

 

Not balancing the tonearm correctly, not zeroing out the indicator weight, moving the indicator ring instead of the counterweight, etc. It seems simple but people screw it up all the time. Some counterweights are not very accurate either. Digital scales cost $10 are an easy peace of mind.

 

Why do you say that? A shop can make mistakes, and it can do so twice in a row or even more often than that. It happens. Anyway, excessive VTF can ruin a stylus and suspension quite quickly and assuming otherwise is a mistake. We're dealing with delicate things (cartridges) that can withstand a lot of highly satisfying use only as long as all of the settings needed to align and set them up are carefully and accurately done. Hopefully, your dealer will sort it out satisfactorily for you.

Nobody thinks you're nuts at all. You're just trying to get to the source of a problem. If the shop installs another new cartridge, check the VTF and VTA when you get the turntable home. If it's off, call the shop and demand that the setup technician comes to your place to sort it out (if you're not confident about making adjustments yourself).

Over the past three years alone, I've fixed seven cartridge installations done by supposedly experienced shops. There are only three dealers (out of a dozen in the greater Toronto area) who I'd trust to do a top-notch cartridge installation and setup. And yet, every dealer claims to be a top-notch turntable and cartridge setup expert. And yet (again), in addition to their setups they do for their own sales the three truly solid setup guys are regularly charging good money to fix the awful setups done by the other dealers.

I've seen reversed leads, grossly inaccurate VTF, grossly misadjusted VTA, unattended or grossly misaligned azimuth, gross cartridge/tonearm mismatches (in one cause causing audible ringing), spindle-to-pivot distance more than 10mm off, disconnected grounds, counterweights jammed tightly against the pivot housing, counterweights at the very end of the stub and hanging on only by a thread-and-a-half (and rattling audibly), the use as phono cables of exotic interconnects featuring enough capacitance to make me wonder if they could be used as filter caps on a power supply, and on and on. Shops and end users alike from time to time make coarse mistakes.

In almost every case where I've been asked to assess the audible problems with someone's analog setup, the issues have been corrected by redoing the cartridge installation, and/or correcting the phono preamp loading and gain settings. Then there are the bad cables, inappropriate cables, overly long cables, phono cables run directly through nests of power cables.

 

The number markings on the PJ rear aweigh are labeled odd in my opinion. I can absolutely see a shop reading them wrong which would put excessive VTF on the stylus. I suspect this is the issue.

If you have not adjusted anything yet I would purchase a $15 digital scale & check the tracking force. If you can prove the shop set it really high causing the stylus to collapse then I would fight to get a new 2MBlue at their expense.

 

I had ortofon blue and red before that... although it is more detailed than a red it isn't cart i would recommend you to buy... lots of problems with IGD.

 

A funny thing about that.. they'd actually set it low! I dialed it up, dragging got worse, asked them about it, they told me to dial it back.

 

Yeah the problem is that I'm kind of at the mercy of this shop. Maybe if they don't reply or seem fed up I'll try the other one in town. I can't do anything else. Wow, what a pain in the ass!

 

Yikes. A big reason why I prefer to do my own set ups with a few simple tools. A lot of shops are just full of clueless salesmen pushing the latest gear that makes their margins or whatever. No thanks.

 

When looking at the cartridge itself, is it riding "tail down"? Look at the top(not the bottom) of the cartridge to see if it's parallel to the record surface. If it's tail down, your Vertical tracking angle (VTA) is off. This can be adjusted either by raising the tonearm if possible, or using a thinner platter mat. I've also read that your issue can be caused by the stylus assembly not being seated correctly in the cart.

 

A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

OP

Trust us on this...& buy yourself a digital scale, an alignment protractor & azimuth window. All three items can be purchased on Amazon for a total of maybe $40.

Watch a few YouTube videos on how to setup a tonearm then allot an hr to do it yourself. Once you get familiar with it you can swap cartidges in about 20min but your first time may take an hr.

If you decide you need to purchase a new cart then my personal recommendation would be the Audio Technica VM540ML. I upgraded my Project Esprit from a 2MRed to the 540ML & wow!! I’ll just say I’m enjoying my vinyl more than ever.

Once you know how to setup a tonearm & cart you’ll never be at the mercy of any shop. Plus it’s good to know how to check things if you accidentally bump the cart or someone else messes with you table.

Plus all of us are here to help answer questions along the way if you need. There are PLENTY of great guys here

 

Jut my personal experience, but I had a 2M Blue in my system once. I didn't have a problem with the setup, but I hated the way it sounded. It didn't track well, it spotlit certain frequencies, etc. I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Enter the AT 540. It's a beautiful sounding cart that can play anything and tracks like a bloodhound.

 

I bought the 2m Blue and it was working fine. Then switched out and got an acrylic platter. Not the cartridge drags on certain records it will drag and produce obvious audio artifacts. My understanding was that just swiping out from the red all one would need to do is make sure the tone arm is balanced and off you go. I guess the acrylic platter sits up higher and this has an affect that I was not aware of. Any suggestions of what my options might be. Project Debut Carbon is the turntable. Thanks

 

Take a photo to give us a better understanding.

Is the tonearm parallel to the record?
Have you pushed thr stylus in all the way?

 

If your new platter is higher than the original then you need to compensate by raising the arm accordingly (VTA), I don't know whether your TT allows for that.

 

I went through 2M Blue styli. Never had any issues. I use blue in my 2nd setup where I normally play a fair amount of warped records They are low riders, but for the cart to drag against the vinyl, there must be something completely wrong somewhere.

Yeah. A photo would go great lengths in helping forum members figure out what's wrong with your cart/setup.

Regards