Outboard D/A converters - advice requested!

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Gary, Mar 25, 2003.

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  1. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    I have the Sony 775 (SACD) and a HK HDCD CD player. Redbook playback is pretty good for both of these machines!

    Several stores have recommended the particular brands that they sell. Not too unusual, huh? :rolleyes:

    I'm considering the basic MSB which is upgradeable (HDCD chip, upsampling). My two concerns are:

    1) What the effect would it have for a SACD machine? Better? Worse? The same? My theory is that the SACD playback laser (and a DVD-A playback laser, too!!!) is of a higher quality and thus redbook sounds better. Would a DAC really improve redbook playback?

    2) Will this be quickly outdated with advancing technology.... to become a piece of junk? It upsamples to 192K. Is there much higher resolution / upsampling on the horizon?

    http://www.msbtech.com/msb_home.htm

    And then one comes across something like this....

    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0200/anmeetsmsb.htm

    Hey! Isn't EnjoyTheMusic a member here? :)

    I know some people scoff at upsampling. From what I've heard, it does work (sound better) although I've not spent a lot of time doing serious listening....

    Any thoughts will be appreciated!

    :nauga:
     
  2. rontokyo

    rontokyo Senior Member

    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    I've got the MSB with the 96K upsampling upgrade and am very fond of the unit, but I can in no way consider myself an audiophile. I don't hear much difference with the upgrade thru my speakers, but I do on more serious listening thru Grado RS-1 headphones. Upsampling to 192K is very expensive [if memory serves]. As regards SACD, as they currently provide no digital outputs I don't believe you can use the MSB for that purpose, though analog outs are available. Will the technology become outdated? Who knows, but I don't believe it's like buying a computer that can become a relic in only 2-3 years. I did quite a bit of research re: prices and can forward you to a site that offered the best price. They do appear on eBay and bargains can be had there. Truth be known, had I been a member of this board before buying the MSB, I would've asked the same questions you have before buying. Unfortunately, even though I own it I'm not really qualified to answer your questions any better than I have. I'm looking forward to reading comments from other members, though.
     
  3. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    It's been my experience that D/A converters, upsamplers, etc., can definitely change the sound of redbook CD, though not always for the better. And unfortunately, the technical specs on these units seem about as useless for predicting sound quality as they are on amplifiers or speakers.

    This skeptic had always been leery that digital accessories could do anything other than fatten someone else's wallet -- "bits is bits," you know -- but I can't deny what I've heard over the years.

    While I understand the increased computing power of an outboard converter could render a change, why does the digital cable make a difference? Why do transports, presumably reading the same unconverted ones and zeros, sound different? Why do some older converters often sound better than newer units with better specs? I don't know why, but they do. You might say that while all bits are equal, some bits are more equal than others.

    A friend of mine recently bought a kilobuck Sony ES SACD/CD/DVD player, and blind-tested on a preamp that could immediately toggle between volume-matched inputs, my choice for redbook playback included his long-standing Adcom D/A converter, not the SACD player's built-in converters. He begrudgingly agreed with my assessment; I think he was hoping to eliminate at least one box from his overcrowded rack.

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Several years ago, I made the same blinded decision when he "upgraded" his CD playback to a DVD machine with allegedly better redbook specs than his converter. The Adcom converter still sounded better. He can't get the damn thing out of his system.

    I would definitely look to upgrade to a redbook converter, assuming your players have a standard redbook digital output (obviously, the SACD portion will not have a digital out). Generally, I would ignore terms like "multi-chip," "upsampling, "jitter reduction," etc., as guarantees of better sound. Like remastering, the engineering behind converters seems to have more to do with the engineer's expertise than the hardware itself. Read the reviews on audioreview.com and audition what you can. I know the Adcom units can be had relatively cheap on eBay.
     
  4. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    Thank you for your responses so far!

    Ron (in Tokyo), as far as I am concerned, an audiophile is one who appreciates well mastered music. What one owns or how much one spends on one's system will enable them to HEAR better perhaps - but not appreciate the music better.

    Thanks for your comments! :)

    Ron (in Maryland - beautiful state, BTW! I love those twisty roads!) you raise an interesting point. Perhaps I should be more interested in how it sounds in my system and with my tubes than looking for a SACD redboook match. I think I know of an Adcom locally that I may be able to borrow. Unfortunately, I'd have to order and buy the MSB.

    Keep those comments coming! :thumbsup:
     
  5. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    When auditioning components with varying output levels (like converters), borrow or buy a dB meter and a disc with a test tone to ensure you're listening at the same volume; otherwise the louder unit will almost always sound better.

    And listen to a spectrum of your favorite music. Sometimes a deficiency will enhance a particular recording or type of recording, but disappoint you later when you go through your collection: "But this sounded so good on piano, why don't I like it on rock?"

    And I'm a believer in background listening in addition to seated brow-furrowed concentration. After serious auditioning, get up and do some chores in the other room, bang on the internet with only one ear to the system, etc. Sometimes something will catch you off-guard, like the snare in a particular song or a backing vocal you didn't realize was double-tracked until now, stuff you might miss staring a hole in the sweet spot.

    FWIW, the Adcom, in my opinion, seemed to slightly darken the sound at first in comparison to standard playback. But everything was smoother and more detailed and more authoritive/dynamic, always a good sign.
     
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    System dependent. System dependent.

    Your A/D has to be totally neutral; nothing else in the system is, not the cables, interconnects, speakers, amps, etc.

    Ya can't use the A/D (Adcom or whatever) to get a pleasing sound. It doesn't work that way! :) (Well, you can if you want, but you are not hearing the true sound of your CD's. I guess in many cases that could be a good thing. Hee.)
     
  7. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    So, if I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly, the more advanced the D/A converter is the more "neutral" it is. Therefore if one were to substitute the inboard converter on a piece of equipment with a better more advanced design wouldn't it follow that you would obtain "less coloured" or in essence "better" sound? True, it may not be more pleasing but that shouldn't be the objective in the first place. I should think it (the objective) should be accuracy of repoduction, pleasing or not.
     
  8. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    My friend's Adcom "seemed" slightly darker, but that was because in retrospect the standard playback out of the JVC unit was a little bass-shy, accentuating the treble. Once we matched levels, the Adcom provided a richer but more-detailed sound; in other words, both the bass and treble were better. More importantly, it was more dynamic, and instruments were rendered with more weight and complexity. Do you not like the Adcom?

    My system, on the other hand, leans toward pleasing, rather than ruthlessly accurate, CD sound. I listen to way too much music recorded and remastered with little regard to sonic niceties (Motown, blues, etc.) to be assaulted with every deficiency in the recording chain every time I get a hankering for some Smokey Robinson or Howlin Wolf. When I want to hear how something really sounds, I'll slip on the headphones.
     
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Yes, in theory, the more advanced the D/A converter is the more "neutral" it should be (in theory).

    And yes, pleasing is not the objective but accuracy of reproduction, pleasing or not. Every other component in your system can be tailored to suit your personal taste.

    Look at it this way: You are in a room with 10 people and you all have to do something together at a certain time. You all look at your watches and since every watch is off a bit, no one really knows the time. There needs to be ONE guy with a watch that is accurate; every thing else is just floundering around in the dark.

    Bad example but all I could think of at this moment..


    And Ron, I just singled out the Adcom as an example. I haven't heard one in a long time so I can't properly evaluate it!
     
  10. Ambel

    Ambel New Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    First of all If you use an outboard DAC this would only be applicable
    to the redbook playback not on SACD. There is the Meitner DAC for
    SACD but you need a coverted Philips SACD 1000 for transport.
    Regarding upsampling it would depend on your taste I heard those
    MSB and they sound way smooth for me at the expense of liveliness
    and dynamics. This is basically my experience with upsampler and there
    is another school of thought bypassing the oversampling. Just raw data
    into the DAC. Sounds livelier, dynamic, with a lot of punch but it's not
    finese. And if you decided to go for the DAC the Sony CE775 the digital
    output is Toslink optical not RCA coaxial which is better.
    For a good DAC I would recommend CAL Sigma II It uses the 12AX7
    for the analog output. You can tube roll say Tele's, RCA, Mullards lots
    of flavor.
     
  11. tomcat

    tomcat Senior Member

    Location:
    Switzerland
    This is an easy one: because there is no such thing like a digital cable and because there are no "ones" and no "zeroes" on the CD. The CD data is an analogue electrical signal which goes through a cable like any other electrical signal - therefore it can be altered and may not be transported properly by the cable. It is inside the converter where the signal is converted back to a digital datastream which - again - is converted to an analogue signal representing the sampled music signals.
    Different transports may also sound different because of their analogue section: power supply, any other electrical device inside. How fast is its circuitry and therefore how steep is the signal they are going to send to the "digital" output? How much jitter does it generate? These are imho the important questions referring to a transport.
    Hope this helped...
    NJoy the Music!
    Thomas
     
  12. I have the MSB Link III

    Gary,

    I have the MSB Link III and a Monarchy DIP 24/96 -Jitter filter. The made a tremendous improvement in sound quality when I used them with my Toshiba DVD player and my Marantz SR 880 5.1 receiver. Keep in mind that the Toshiba DVD player and the Marantz receiver were both built in 1997---the dawn of DVD players and DD 5.1.

    I have since upgraded to a Sony Sony SCD 222ES SACD player and a Aragon 7.1 processor w/Acurus amp. I use the Monarchy DIP 24/96 -Jitter filter on my new system, but I have not tried the MSB Link yet. I use the jitter filter because the Aragon processor does not reclock the digital signal prior to converting.

    The MSB Link uses Burr Brown DAC's and the Aragon uses eight Crystal 24-bit/192kHz DAC's. Since the Aragon's DAC's are two to three years newer in design than the MSB DAC's, I can only assume that the Aragon's DAC's are better.

    My opinion is that if you have an older system the MSB will make a noticeable difference. I know that when I used it on my Toshiba/Marantz setup, the bass was more solid and the midrange was smoother. There was more air around the instruments and the digital grundge was reduced. The difference was noticeable.

    John
     
  13. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    Good points, John!

    Now I am wondering if more electronics in the chain before my tubes would help or hinder my sound quality. I think I'd better borrow or at least make sure it's returnable if it chokes things up!

    Ron Stone, what CDP does your friend have?
     
  14. audiodrome

    audiodrome Senior Member

    Location:
    North Of Boston
    Apogees are very nice. I've tried the Myteks but I don't like them - kind of thin...
     
  15. Ronald

    Ronald Senior Member

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    I have had a MSB Link III DAC with upsampling for over a year. My CD transport is the Sony DVP 500 SACD player. To my ears, I thought the 132.3 kHz Upsampling setting did NOT improve the sound noticeably.

    The biggest change I found to improve the sound of playback through the MSB Link III DAC was leaving the upsampler set at 96 kHz and by changing the analog filter setting on jumper J16 by removing the L Filter 1 and R Filter 1 jumpers. I also have a Monarchy DIP 24/96 and I found that combining the two units did not produce a synergistic effect. It may be because the MSB Upsampler already possesses jitter reducing capability and that results in redundancy. Whenever I played the Classic Records DAD's, there was a loud clicking sound in the music with the upsampler option turned on. Removing the Monarchy DIP removed the click. Does that mean the Monarchy is evil? No, I think the MSB and Monarchy cannot coexist with the MSB Upsampler option playing back 96 kHz disks. I won't propose a scientific basis for this, but my observations (the noisy clicks) validate my decision.

    I have contacted MSB about installing the AES/EBU connection to the back of the Link III DAC and using the balanced output from the DIP into the MSB.

    In the mean time, I use the Monarchy DIP for use between my Pioneer DVL-919 LD/DVD player and Elite receiver. The change in this application is dramatic. I find the sound with the DIP in place is much tighter on both DTS and DD playback. I don't know if the Monarchy should have an effect with movie sound, but my ears detect one. Of course with CD playback, the DIP produces marked improvement. I recommend the DIP and Link DAC III as components, but not in a system where they are to be used together. I guess I differ with Tom Gillette's opinion in his review of using the Monarchy Audio DIP 24/96 and MSB Link III DAC in "Stereophile."
     

  16. Ron,

    I also have the Link and the DIP. I noticed that after I installed the upsampling board I heard a loud digital noise each time the CD player read the TOC on every CD. I too do not hear much improvement when the upsampling board is set to 132.3. I'll have to try swirching the jumpers as you suggest.

    I do have a problem with the upsampling board. After I installed the upsampling board, I hear clicking from my speakers each time the CD player begins reading the TOC of every CD. It dosen't matter if the DIP is installed or not. This is my second upsampling board.
     
  17. Larry Johnson

    Larry Johnson Senior Member

    Location:
    Chicago area
    I have had the MSB Link Dac III with upsampling to 96kHz (without the optional power unit) with a Monarchy DIP 24/96 for 3 years. I use optical output from my cdp (Pioneer 1039 300 disk jukebox) and coax from DIP to MSB. My Sony SACD 775 is a dedicated SACD player and I haven't tried combining it with the DIP/MSB combo.

    I initially tried the MSB alone but found the sound somewhat harsh (from jitter?). Adding the Monarchy DIP eliminated the harshness and I'm now very happy with the sound of my system. I also did not like the 132.3kHz option and turned it off. I also get the clicking sound but only after I turn the cd player off. The Monarchy DIP has a button that eliminates the clicking.

    I find that I like the upsampling to 96kHz and rarely turn it off. FWIW I think that the DIP is essential to reduce jitter, but that it does a very good job. Even though I didn't get the HDCD option, HDCD's sound very very good with the MSB.

    I haven't tried other DACs in my system but I'm very satisfied with how it presently sounds.
     
  18. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    Data Coversion Systems Dacs are considered first rate and would be worth checking out.
     
  19. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Gary,

    If you don't mind me asking, what price range of DACs are you considering? The reason I ask, is because maybe, you should consider unloading the H/K for a better redbook machine.

    Here's where I'm coming from:
    I used to be very happy with the sound of my Sony SCD-C555ES SACD changer on redbook. Then, I made the mistake of taking home a Meridian 508.24 CD player (~$4K). That thing blew my mind!! The clarity and punch it had with redbook CDs made my poor Sony sound mushy, muddled and dull.

    With a better CDP, you'll not only get better DACs, but better parts inside the player that can contribute to better sound. There's a lot of good sound on many redbooks waiting to be unlocked!

    Well, the Meridian CDP (which has 24bit upsampling BTW) spoiled me something rotten and I knew the C555ES had to go. I got a Sony XA777ES player and noticed a huge improvement over the C555ES. Was it as good as the Meridian? Maybe. I didn't have them both at the same time, but they both sound damn good. :)
     
  20. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    Interesting story, SamS!

    I saw the MSB 'on sale' for a mere $650.00 Canadian. Regular price is $950.00 HDCD updgrade is another $250. - $300. and the 96 / 24 upgrade is another $250. - $300.

    This is within my price range. The $4K USD (over $6,000.00 Canadian) is a bit more than I can justify. The HDCD player or 775 SACD player would serve as a transport only for redbook.

    I've not checked out any other DACs but I have a friend that may lend me his, a good trial!

    Thanks for all the interesting advice, all!
     
  21. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Oh Gary, I wasn't necessarily recommending the $4K player :)

    Only recommending if possible to try out a CDP in the budget range you're thinking about. You could very well get better sound out of a ~$1K CDP than a ~$1K DAC, although I don't have any specific examples to give you. Hopefully some other "audio-guys" around here can chime in!
     
  22. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    Oh, OK! I get it now! Interesting idea! :)

    Gary's current Redbook Player theorys:

    1) A $1,000.00 SACD or DVD player sounds better on redbook than a straight redbook player. Why? A more expensive laser is used for extracting video, 5.1 surround, etc. This also translates to better redbook pickup.

    Problem: If the laser is designed for multi use, redbook pickup may be an afterthought.

    2) A DAC is just a DAC while a CDP is a transport and DAC. Logic would say that the manufacturer could build a better DAC with $1,000.00 than a whole CDP.

    Problem: Manufacturers may build the same type of DAC that's in a CDP and not building a transport section simply means more profit to them.

    Please note that these are theorys only. My thoughts. No basis in reality.

    ____________________
    Incidentally the HK was $400.00 and has a Burr/Brown DAC(s). It sounds pretty sweet. At one time it sounded better than the 775 but I should really A/B them again as the 775 is well burnt in now! Are you saying that your are.... less than impressed with the HK series of CDPs?
    ______________________


    Anyone know of a great sounding CDP for about $1,000.00 or less? :)
     
  23. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    This entire topic has been my "last" quest in audio for achieving better sound as of the past year or so.

    After getting a good amp and speakers, I neglected to realize the importance that good redbook playback can accomplished with a quality CDP.

    I think we (well, specifically you and me, Gary) are at the point where matching CDP sound to the rest of your system is critical. When you have your amp/pre-amp/speakers bases covered, getting the right source is critical. Echoing Steve Hoffman's thoughts earlier, "System Dependant".

    I know Steve stresses neutrality for a CDP, and I follow this rationalization, but a "neutral" sounding CDP may make a bright sounding system unlistenable.

    Gary, would you consider spending some $$ to get your 775 modded? This may be the most cost effective way to get your affordable player to compete with the audio "big boys".

    I'd also recommend as many in-home trials as you can manage. Rotel makes a nice CDP called the RCD-1070. Sells for ~$700US and sounds very nice. I believe it does do HDCD as well.
     
  24. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm very reluctant to get the 775 modded. I'd have to send it over the border, spend $400.00 US (or something like that) and hope it gets back to me. And hope it gets back to me in one piece. Not to mention paying duties taxes and shipping on it!

    I've lost three CDs in the mail last year. The CDP would probably go courier but I still dislike the idea.

    I've thought of ordering the parts for the upgrade sent up here. But I have to get someone to put it togeather for me. I know a couple of places that will give it a shot but they can't guarantee anything.

    Or I can buy one already modded from the modders web site.

    Heck.

    You know how much the Beatles Ed Sullivan DVD's finally cost me? A little under $150.00 in total. Shipping, taxes, etc. What will a modded 775 finally end up costing me? Ugh!

    Double heck!

    They've run out of Sony 555ES machines up here. The last price that they were at was $1,499.00 CAD. The 777's are long gone but they never dipped below $5,999.00 CAD.

    I think I may end up living with what I have (if the outboard DAC idea finally fizzles) and wait for a decent player that does SACD with timing alignment (required for my tiny listening room, stuffed with LPs, CDs, etc.) as well as redbook.

    But I know someone who will be getting rid of a DAC. He'll let me try it out for a while.... I think.

    Sorry for sounding so grumpy! The 'at home' demo idea is a good one!!!

    Think I'll invest in the lotto! :D
     
  25. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Boy, you Canadians have it pretty tough sliding things over the border :(

    The more I think about it, I think I would do the modded 775 instead of a DAC. But, you bring up valid points about the costs of getting this done.

    I think it will be later this summer before Sony shows us any new audio-only SACD players. Heck, their (possible?) new flagship model, the XA9000ES doesn't even appear to do time-alignment.

    Please let us know your experiences with the DAC you try out.
     
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