"Outer-Groove Distortion"

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Ola Rundberget, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    Hi, i am wondering what causes "outer-groove distortion" or more simplified - i have two original Rolling Stone's records. No2, and that first one, just named Rolling Stones.

    On the Rolling Stones, listening to Route 66, is a bit of an ear-pain inducer, whereas Jaggers's S'es are sharp and hars, more pointed to the rigth side of "rightside" of the mono track.
    Its not raspy, but he's vocals are harsh on that song. And that goes for No2 also, he's sses are sharp and harsh.

    On Route 66, the sixty-six sounds is sharp and harsh, but not SHHixty shhix

    But, it mellows down close to the center of the record.
    Is this just because its from 1964, and the limitations of that decade's recording equipment?
     
  2. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    Assuming you don't have a problem with other records I would say your records are either worn or damaged in some way, they could also be bad/faulty pressings.

    While some early recordings might have deficiencies there is no shortage of excellent sounding 50's and 60's records. I don't have myself many Stones records to comment on their sound but the ones I have sound good enough to me. It could help others to know details about the records you are talking about were they pressed in Norway, US, UK are they early or recent, etc. Also, did you buy them new or second hand?
     
  3. OldSoul

    OldSoul Shattered

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    You either have groove damage, or your anti-skate it off. Try forming a mono signal somehow--that can make a crackly mono record sound near mint.
     
  4. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    Both Stones records are early unboxed Deccas. Bought second hand.

    I checked anti-skate with that Ultimate Analogue Test LP, and no issues were heard.
    As far as i can tell, yes. Just theese two.
    And its just Micks vocals, when he sings loud.
     
  5. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    In that case being early, second hand records my bet is that there is already some groove damage. The main problem when buying very old records is that in those days the vast majority of players were awful. That kind of records even if not too bad looking are likely to have been played a lot by teenagers that wanted to have fun.

    Maybe someone else can comment on those two records, the only complain I could make about the few old Stones records I have is that they might not be as rich sounding as others but nothing like your description.
     
    nosliw likes this.
  6. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    I might return that one, as the seller did tell me, that it has rarely been played.
    Tho, it has some spindle-marks.. But looks fine for beeing that old.

    Just to make things clear - if i had an issue with setup / or the stylus-diamond was damaged in any way, that would have been heard on all of my 80 records- right?

    And Mick's SSes are mostly sharper and brighter in the right channel. What does this tell you?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  7. zombiemodernist

    zombiemodernist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeastern USA
    Agree with others, it’s likely groove damage, which happens when a previous setup shaved the hot portions of Mick’s vocals by mistracking. Very common on older records when poor setups and heavy use were common.

    As said above for optimal playback try summing the channels to mono. You can also try playback with various stylus profiles including a conical stylus, which many prefer for mono LPs of that vintage, or the polar opposite, a MicroLine stylus to see if that rides beneath the groove damage.
     
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  8. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    +1 on likely groove damage. Take a look closely at the lead in groove and the runout. Do you see lots of tiny marks? Couple that with spindle marks on the label and those are telltale signs of a record that's been played hard and groove worn. Not much to do other than find a better copy or experiment with stylus profiles.
     
    zombiemodernist likes this.
  9. caracallac

    caracallac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ireland
    Sounds like groove damage to me...
     
    zombiemodernist likes this.
  10. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    Thanks for all the replies :) Return to sender ha..
     
    Aftermath likes this.
  11. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    Well, the ABCKO 2003 DSd was my way out, at least i thought. Pressing defect. Raspy every 10 second.
     
  12. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Did you try another copy? What are you playing these records on? Your profile info is not filled out.

    At any rate, I can't speak to the pressing quality of those particular LP reissues. I can tell you that the 2002/3 ABCKO remasters are very good on CD for all the titles I have.

    What those remasters sound like on an LP is going to be down to the lacquer cutter and pressing plant. The source itself is going to be the same.
     
  13. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    Pro-Ject Classic with an Ortofon Quintet Bronze.
    Paired with a Schiit Mani Phono-amp and an Shciit vali tube amp.

    Its usually just the records where Jagger sorts of shouts the words staring with an S. Mono records.
    This however, does not happen on my Kinks ( face to face, reprise mono) nor other mono's.

    Yet, on say the Decca repress of Small Faces, ( 2015) Its slightly pronounced, where the S-sound is abit louder.
    And then, on the Mono version of Ogdens Nut Gone Flake - S is ok .
     
  14. Curiosity

    Curiosity Just A Boy

    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I have the European DSD issues of the Rolling Stones albums on vinyl and it shouldn't sound like that playing them on my Ortofon Concorde with types 10 and 20 styli.
     
  15. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    My DSD was actually a defect, Had a lot of wierd non-musical noises.
     
  16. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Are you summing the signal to mono from the phono preamp? The Mani does not have a mono switch. Maybe you have one in-line? If not I would recommend trying one.
     
  17. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    Either your stylus is not thin enough, aligned optimally for outer grooves or the grooves are damaged.
    Its also possible the music is just naturally sibilant but Im guessing this is not the case.

    Also, anti skate is really bad to set on test LPs. They often just overdo it. Try lowering the anti skate and see how that plays.
     
  18. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    I see. I noticed this on my previous Quintet Bronze too, so i thought it was that. Sadly that was dropped and damaged.

    Had to get a new one. What is the chance that two are not in order?
     
  19. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    Actually... I found the culprit. Its my damn tube amp..
    I replaced it with a non-tube.

    Much better..
     
  20. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    And they say tubes smoothens the sound and makes it more organic...
     
  21. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    Well...

    Ok, so now i know.
    If my stylus was in any way chipped or damaged. What would that sound like? And would i not hear it on all my 80 records?

    If it was mistracking, would it not be heard on all records?
     
  22. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    Depends on how its chipped. And yes you should hear it on them all if your have a recollection of how they should sound.

    But mistracking wouldnt necessarily be heard on all records. Mistracking happens when the gear is not capable of following the grooves. But there are degrees of capability. Extreme frequencies and loud passages are tougher but if the album doesnt have any then it will be fine on even lesser gear. Which is why cutting engineers often try to mitigate these qualities so that people have a trouble free experience no matter what they use to play back with. The Bronze should not have any problems on 99% of records though as long as they are not worn.
     
  23. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    I mean, mistracking would not only be listenable at the outer grooves? IE a misaligned cart. Or a damaged one, would also affect the entire record right?
     
  24. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Uppsala Sweden
    A damaged one, yes.
    Misaligned, no.

    When you set up a turntable and cart youre always doing certain compromises. There is no one correct setting for everything, not for alignment, anti skate, VTA etc. Youre just trying to get the best overall performing installation. But if you align with Baerwald you focus more on the other grooves rather than the inner. For Stevenson its vice versa, which would be really good if you for example only play Classical or 7" singles, theres much less need to get optimal tracking far out on the record.
    If its misaligned to an extreme then if course you will hear it throughout though.
     
  25. Ola Rundberget

    Ola Rundberget Well-Known Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Norway
    Much wiser now. :)
    I used Dr Feickerts protactor to set up with Baerwald. And sat overhang too.

    I then user Ortofons( its Baerwald) own to double-check, and the stylus is dead center.
     

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