Overgrading Discogs sellers....

Discussion in 'Marketplace Discussions' started by sunking101, Sep 22, 2021.

  1. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    Grr. I generally prefer Ebay due to the photos and increased chance of getting my money back. On Discogs sellers think that they can overgrade and then offer you an insignificant partial refund to make you go away when you inevitably complain. This is from sellers with 99%+ feedback!

    I'm only interested in NM/NM vinyl or a properly graded EX/EX but so many sellers overgrade by at least one rating grade, sometimes two. Sending me a VG/VG and then offering me a $5 partial refund is not what I'm looking for! :(
     
  2. Chemguy

    Chemguy Forum Resident

    Does this really happen often to you? It really hasn’t been my experience on Discogs. I find the sellers there far more knowledgeable, for obvious reasons.
     
    GimiSomeTruth and 4-2-7 like this.
  3. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    Yes. I would say that a third of my purchases are overgraded.
     
  4. johnny q

    johnny q Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bergen County, NJ
    I have received over graded LPs and also the incorrect pressing via Discogs purchases. In all honestly, these are exceptions and not the norm. Usually, the seller is extremely apologetic and willing to work with me. With that said, when these things happen it is eternally frustrating.
     
    Pushpaw, GentleSenator and sunking101 like this.
  5. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Oh, this refreshingly new topic! Awesome. :p
     
  6. Cody B

    Cody B Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Doylestown, PA
    I sell a lot on Discogs. I always try to grade conservatively and out of 1000+ sales I've only ever had one complaint. The only records that are considered mint are sealed ones, otherwise NM is my highest grade. When buying, I always ask them, "Does NM mean perfect, no flaws, no marks, no scratches?" Almost always (if they even reply) they say it has some kind of flaw.
     
    Strat-Mangler, Shawn and 4-2-7 like this.
  7. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    I find people buying records these days don't know how to grade records.
    For starts they think there is such a thing as mint or even near mint.
    They want a 50 year old used record to look perfect and not hear one little tick or pop. Even if it's some air born dust in their house and it lands on a record while they play it, the record is not perfect because they heard a pop. I would say maybe out of a 2000 pressings of a specific matrix number a title is under there might be one near mint copy. However there generally is none, the records didn't come to us like that sealed brand new back in the day.

    People are looking for unicorns and they just don't exists.

    Even if I could get a record to play perfect on my table with a killer washing and magically it was dead silent. The buyers table cartridge setup might actually amplify surface noise I never heard on my system. They also might not have taken the care I did to make sure I had every spec of dust off the record.

    I also find the biggest complainers about record sound quality tend to have budget playback system. They don't quite grasp how a inexpensive cartridge can amplify surface noise someone else does not hear with a very good cartridge. A 2M blue and others will not play back a record like my Sumiko Blackbirds. A record that sounds like a VG with a 2M blue, could sound like a near mint with the blackbird.

    That said if your buying used records your equipment matters as to what you hear, and maybe others, the seller equipment did not play it that way.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
    Sprague Dawley likes this.
  8. Brian Lux

    Brian Lux One in the Crowd

    Location:
    Placerville, CA
    In general, what you're saying seems quite right. But the question that comes to my mind is, What percentage of vinyl fans here have cartridges that run over $1,000? Your argument (which again, is generally on the mark) seems to compare people who have modest systems with those who can afford high end audio equipment. Look at my situation, for example. I'm basically retired and other than the little bit of money I make selling used books on-line, I'm on a fixed, low income. I make the best purchases I can with the money I have (feel free to check out my profile). My set up sounds good to me. I'm very careful about purchasing LPs in good shape, most of them being analog recordings, a few new releases, and most of my 1,000 or so LPs sound better to me than almost all of my CDs.
    When I get an LP from a seller that has over-graded the LP, I can tell that it has been. I don't need a $1200 cart to tell me that. I also am aware that with my system, I'm going to get a little bit of surface noise or a few clicks. But like I said, most of my records sound great on my modest system.
    And look, we're not all in a high tax bracket category. This is not an elitist club.
     
  9. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    It seems to me that mamy online sellers can't grade vinyl properly. I can tell the difference between these descriptions when I look at a record visually.

    Record Collectors Grading system
    Mint (M) The record itself is in brand new condition with no surface marks or deterioration in sound quality. The cover and any extra items such as the lyric sheet. booklet or poster are in perfect condition. Records marked as Sealed or Unplayed should be Mint.
    Excellent (EX) The record shows some signs of having been played, but there is very little lessening in sound quality. The cover and packaging might have slight wear and/or creasing.
    Very Good (VG) The record has obviously been played many times, but displays no major deterioration in sound quality, despite noticeable surface marks and the occasional light scratch. Normal wear and tear on the cover or extra items, without any major defects is acceptable
    Good (G) Te record has been played so much that the sound quality has noticeably deteriorated, perhaps with some distortion and mild scratches. The cover and contents suffer from folding, scuffing of edges, spine splits, discolouration, etc
    Fair (F) The record is still just playable but has not been cared for properly and displays considerable surface noise; it may even jump. The cover and contents will be torn, stained and/or defaced.
    Poor (P) The record will not play properly due to scratched, bad surface noise, etc. The cover and contents will be badly damaged or partly missing
    Bad (B) The record is unplayable or might even be broken, and is only of use as a collection-filler
     
  10. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    Again, the fact is not all cartridges play the same record the same.
    The fact is I have never seen or heard a perfect record.
    I feel people new to buying records are used to how quiet CDs and digital files sound. In fact a lot of us are, we got used to it and now we try to asked that from records. When we (Old Timers) never heard digital before our record sounded fine even G rated grading LOL.

    My basic point is people think there is a grading of mint, I don't. I feel the best grading you can get is "As Factory Delivered" that is new and sealed. If you open it someones opinion might place it as VG listening to it on their system. Someone else opinion on their system it might be NM.

    There is far too many variables and people buying new and used record expect too much. Sellers can't control a buyers false beliefs in Unicorns.
     
    Brian Lux likes this.
  11. Brian Lux

    Brian Lux One in the Crowd

    Location:
    Placerville, CA
    Fact one, agreed.
    Fact two, agreed.
    Regarding people wanting records to sound "so digitally clean" like CDs, I get it!
    Regarding nos such thing as "mint, right on!

    The problem with sellers and buyers abound, that is the truth!
     
    4-2-7 likes this.
  12. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    All you're doing today is whining about records, many because of price, this is your second thread on all record are bad. Guess what take a look at how you're not happy when buying new records and you're not happy buying old used ones. No body, no seller, and no records are making you happy. The best thing you could do for all involved is to stop buying and playing records.

    There is no such thing as a mint record, even a brand new sealed record. However even if their was and you bought it I'm sure you would find something to complain about it
     
    GimiSomeTruth likes this.
  13. Brian Lux

    Brian Lux One in the Crowd

    Location:
    Placerville, CA
    Question: Despite the fact that Goldmine kind of downplays the term "mint" (at least they did in an old print guide I have), why haven't they ditched that term and instead gone with "new" or "sealed" instead.? They know darned well "mint" can be very misleading.
     
  14. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    BS. I'm happy with genuine, correctly graded EX/EX records. When I bought the NM/M record I wasn't expecting a M record but I hoped it would be EX+ and not the VG it turned out to be.
     
  15. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    I agree here and why I don't sell a lot of records lately I do try and look at the WTB listings here. Almost everyone asking for a record, ask for Mint. I can have an superb example of a title, maybe a new reissue I played once. I'll contact them stating what I told you, I don't believe there is mint when it comes to records, so I'm not going to say that. I'll go on to say something like I played this open copy once, it's in the same condition as new. I'll say there was nothing that stood out as bad with the record and it plays very cleanly.

    I sold someone here the 45 RPM Rumors album saying the same thing as they asked for mint. In fact they where local and could have come here to listen in person. They got back to me after getting and listening to the record. They said they heard a little pop on one of the sides for two seconds, then went on to say the other three sides where perfect and it wasn't a deal breaker. I said I should hope not and then asked if they washed it after I shipped it, and said one little piece of dust could have landed on the record as they played it to make that pop.

    But this is my point on buyers expectations these days. This is very anal, and if this is your attitude in listening to records I don't want to sell them anything again. Buyers expectation only elevates when the word mint enters the conversation, it's unrealistic.
     
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  16. cwitt1980

    cwitt1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    Carbondale, IL USA
    I feel the problem with someone like the OP who wants NM records is: the sellers who grade NM are usually those willing to take a chance and hope the buyer doesn't care. Most real collectors who actually like vinyl tend to be the ones who will grade NM albums at VG+ and describe them.
     
    grouploner likes this.
  17. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    I really don't go searching for NM records. It was just a recent example where I saw it and got it. Most of the records I buy are described as EX/EX and if they arrive that way then I'm happy. Sadly they're often VG that have been overgraded.
     
  18. cwitt1980

    cwitt1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    Carbondale, IL USA
    Oh okay. Sorry must have missed it with this quote :
    "I'm only interested in NM/NM vinyl or a properly graded EX/EX."
     
  19. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    Well, bearing in mind that records are overgraded in my experience, a NM/NM should arrive as EX/EX.
    I don't go looking for NM because I rarely see it but if it's there then why the heck not? I do mostly end up buying EX records though.

    Some people seem to have a problem with those who like to buy NM vinyl and CDs. Why? The problem is sellers overgrading. If genuine NM media is out there and someone is prepared to pay the tax for it then what's the problem?
     
  20. Brian Lux

    Brian Lux One in the Crowd

    Location:
    Placerville, CA
    I've never been quite clear on what "Excellent" means. Same as NM? Or NM-? Or VG++?
     
  21. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    It's the grading sellers who don't know what they're talking about hide behind.
     
    Gumboo and Brian Lux like this.
  22. Brian Lux

    Brian Lux One in the Crowd

    Location:
    Placerville, CA
    Haha! OK, thanks!
     
  23. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I am having more luck last few months on eBay. More pictures and better refund policies. Plus more buyer protection: on eBay when Seller offers 30 day free returns you just click on that purchase and request refund and eBay immediately sends you a return label.

    As far as how often, on Discogs last few months it's been over 50% of my purchases had issues. On eBay this summer including last set of purchases in September it's been about 25% bad.

     
    sunking101 likes this.
  24. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I don't think that's true at all. I should buy well-described VG albums instead of NM and hope they're really NM? No.

    What I am doing is making my buying criteria stricter. M-NM only. Play graded. 100% positive feedback. Free return shipping. If I find what I want like this and person is doing 30 day refunds with free return shipping I'm more confident I'll get a real NM album, because the seller had enough confidence in their play grading that they offer that 30 day return with free return shipping.

     
  25. cwitt1980

    cwitt1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    Carbondale, IL USA
    NO. I realize reading comprehension isn't all that important anymore but I NEVER said VG gradings. I'm just pointing out that many sellers who are actually collectors will grade what others would think are NM records as "VG+" albums and put descriptions because they actually care. The other choice is Johnny Rando who puts everything as NM and lets the top fly to the wind and hope no one gives a crap.
     
    marcb, Strat-Mangler and troggy like this.

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