Overgrading Discogs sellers....

Discussion in 'Marketplace Discussions' started by sunking101, Sep 22, 2021.

  1. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    You said: "Most real collectors who actually like vinyl tend to be the ones who will grade NM albums at VG+ and describe them, " and, "....many sellers who are actually collectors will grade what others would think are NM records as "VG+" albums."

    So tell this MA in English and MFA in Creative Writing where my comprehension skills are lacking? You are saying they grade NM albums as VG. You said it twice. Great. Thanks for the lecture, Ralph Waldo :laughup:

    I'm trying to avoid the Johnny Rando kinda sellers who puts everything as NM and lets the top fly to the wind and hope no one gives a crap. I'm becoming more restrictive in my buying criteria.

    As to the VG ratings and sellers who are grading what others think as NM as VG, I'd never look at their listings because I filter for NM and would never give a VG graded listing a look. There are soooooooo many VG rated listings there is no way I'd search through all of them and find the seller grading what others would think are NM records as VG+ albums based on their description. Plus if I made a mistake and bought a VG that really was VG I'd be stuck because it was graded correctly and I'd have no recourse for a refund.

     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
  2. IllinoisCheesehead

    IllinoisCheesehead Forum Resident

    Location:
    Illinois
    I was just about to start a new thread on pretty much the same topic. With the exception of one multi-record purchase from a single seller, all the other one-off's from Discogs have been over graded. All listed as NM/M-. They were VG, VG+ at best. If you're grading it NM, 1. It better be visually clean when I pull it out of the sleeve, 2. It better not be loaded with clicks and pops after a wet/vacuum cleaning.

    On top of that, it's pretty clear to me that the positive reviews on Discogs are all BS because sellers appear to be "paying" for positive reviews. I recently gave a seller a non-positive review and was immediately contacted by them saying they wished I had contacted them first before posting my review and they would have given a partial refund. So your 99.9% positive review rating is BS because you pay people off to get a positive review. Got it.
     
    sunking101 and Rattlin' Bones like this.
  3. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    That's my experience, too.

    It's a quandary: do you accept refund and then still leave negative review because grading was whacked? Or leave positive review because they refunded or did a partial refund for the crappy LP they sent?

     
  4. cwitt1980

    cwitt1980 Senior Member

    Location:
    Carbondale, IL USA
    VG and VG+ are not the same. As with most folks who like to tell people how smart they are, they tend to go into conversations without having much knowledge about the subject at hand.
     
  5. Strat-Mangler

    Strat-Mangler Personal Survival Daily Record-Breaker

    Location:
    Toronto
    Best to give up. In his case, I did a while ago. Some people will do anything to resist being or getting educated about a topic they enjoy going off about. There should be a word for this phenomenon but I doubt there is.
     
    GentleSenator, 4-2-7 and cwitt1980 like this.
  6. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    The +/- is a contrived rating whereby the seller feels that the product falls somewhere between two gradings and you can bet your bottom dollar that they are upgrading rather than downgrading the rating!
     
    Rattlin' Bones likes this.
  7. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Thanks.

     
  8. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    When I was in school (it has been a long time) if I got a C or gosh help me a D or even an F, it made no difference to my parents if it was a C+ D+ or F+ lol.

    VG or VG+ it's all subjective. Splitting hairs. Point being I'm not going to search for VG or VG+ or even Excellent LP's.

    If Cwitt wants to prove his manliness over debating these fine details of VG vs VG+ that's on him.

    Point is from my experience most every Discogs seller overrates their LP's.

     
  9. NettleBed

    NettleBed Forum Resident

    Location:
    new york city
    I just got paid off, and I'll shamefully admit that it worked.

    I bought something fairly expensive (by my standards) as M/M and it was really VG+/VG. But it's at an inflated price because people want it and none of the represses sound as good. The seller offered me what was about a 70% refund, which I have to admit is pretty generous. At the price I actually paid, the item wouldn't last a day if I listed it on Discogs myself at the accurate grading. I may not leave any feedback at all, but I'm not inclined to go negative on this, despite the transaction "deserving it." I guess I could leave a positive or neutral and state what happened, so that people who drill down on the comments will be on notice.
     
    Rattlin' Bones likes this.
  10. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Therein lies the rub. These sellers who greatly over-rate condition and then compensate by offering refund or huge partial refund and you keep the LP avoid negative feedback and thus suckers like us continue to buy their crap. I'm now leaving negative feedback and explanation in these situations such as "seller inaccurately graded LP much higher than actual condition, but did offer (xyzzy%$)."

     
  11. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    My last seller was so friendly with his messages before the LP arrived that I almost felt bad complaining and questioning his grading! :shake:

    Then he apologised profusely and offered me a £6 partial refund which I accepted. I still overpaid for the record and to be fair if I had known the true condition at the start then I wouldn't have gone ahead. The thing is, I felt too bad leaving negative feedback so I left none. He deserved bad feedback though by grading a VG record as M!:(
     
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  12. Doghouse Riley

    Doghouse Riley Forum Resident

    Location:
    North West England
    To be fair, the whole grading system is a joke. I only buy mint or near mint records if I can, but it's pot luck on the quality if you're looking for something sixty years old. That'll be descrobed as "good," which really means, "bad."

    But you can be lucky, I bought this several weeks ago on eBay because I like the tune, it was only £2.99 post free and I was prepared to bin it if it was rubbish.
    But I was suprised it was near mint. But then there were and still are, quite a few of the same record available for not much money, as it's not much in demand these days.

     
    Rattlin' Bones likes this.
  13. Pushpaw

    Pushpaw Forum Resident

    I recently received both over graded and also a wrong pressing in the same order. The over graded was stated as NM and played extremely noisy. The wrong pressing was supposed to be a Chris Bellman cut and was not - it didn't have CB and it sounded horrible.

    AND both records reeked of cigarette smoke on arrival. That's my biggest pet peeve.

    But the discogs seller in this case accepted a return, which I paid for initially, but then they also refunded me the shipping costs as they must have investigated and seen that I was not exaggerating.

    That's the only time I've had to return a discogs purchase.
     
    johnny q likes this.
  14. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    I'm going to revert back to this^

    Let me first say I'v never bought or sold anything on discogs, but I'v used and use that site for many years daily mostly.

    A few things I'v always notice
    As soon as one record under a specific title sells and gets a high price. All other current listing the sellers move their prices up to that or just under for the lowest priced copy.

    Also if sellers see people are trying to buy the most expensive copy, and that might be listed as mint. They will raise their price and grading to sell their records.

    Back to buyers assuming and expecting to get a unicorn that really doesn't exists. You guys there is no such thing as mint with records. They are not going to sound quiet like a CD when they have been open and used for 50 years.

    Take a look at these pages from people buying on discogs and saying they will only buy mint grading. Well if sellers are seeing that the listings that sell are mint grading, they are going to grade their clean record as mint also. If buyers are only wanting to buy mint records, and your a seller handling a lot of record know it's BS, might as well call it mint so it sells. Hell might as well put a higher price on it that you didn't plan or want to get for it anyway. If you get a complaint, take care of it with a refund with the higher price you got and still win because it shipped out and you got paid.

    Too many noobs have entered the record collecting hobby, and nothing is stable anymore.
     
  15. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Sorry, but I disagree here. There is such a thing as a Mint- or NM “unicorn” record. It should look like it has never been removed from the sleeve. It’s why a desired vintage pressing - when accurately graded visually as NM - is worth a huge premium over a VG+ record. If in doubt, don’t grade it at NM.

    Play grading can increase selling price in theory, but is a can of worms for a variety of reasons - not the least of which is a brand new record from any era could have clicks and pops. That’s one reason why few dealers do it and Goldmine barely mentions it. If you’re a seller, either specify you don’t play grade (and thus don’t guarantee play grade condition) or you play grade and deal with the variables and downsides which come with the potential premium from play-grading.

    Also, there is NO such thing as qualifying a record’s grade by how old it is. A NM- record is a NM- record, period. When a seller qualifies condition by claiming, for instance, “it’s NM- for a 50 yr record”, that almost always means it’s not a NM- record.
     
  16. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    Yes we do.
     
  17. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    If I'm in the market for a 30 year old record because it's OOP or the reissue sounds lousy then I'm going to hunt for the best damned condition example that I can find and I'm prepared to pay for it. I don't then want to get called a "noob" or someone who doesn't understand gradings.

    I'm wanting the best condition sleeve and best condition vinyl out there and after checking a buyer's feedback I will order from him or her. If they have listed the LP as EX/NM and it arrives to me as VG/VG then why does that make me a noob? So far as I'm concerned it's a seller who either doesn't undetstand record grading or it's a lying fraudster out to fleece me of my money. Trust me, I'm far from a noob at this game.
     
    SoNineties likes this.
  18. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I ain't getting 4-27 or Cwitt either, OP.

    I'm 65 I ain't no noob who doesn't know anything. How insulting is that. These dudes revert to insults. They don't seem to be able to just talk about the topic - DISCOGS SELLERS are OVERGRADING. Countless excuses from this pair for the deliberate fraud we see on Discogs.

    I have purchased NM vintage vinyl. The 1966 Lee Morgan Sidewinder LP I just received the LP is near mint. The cover isn't, but cover wasn't described as NM. It arrived exactly as described. Seller offers 30 day free returns. I'll look for other albums from this seller. I know he graded correctly and he has 30 day free returns (as in he refunds 100% of purchase price including original shipping, and return, if needed, is also free). This was an eBay purchase. Any refunds are handled by eBay they send you return label. I know that this seller isn't overgrading because 1. my experience on initial purchase, and 2. the seller couldn't afford all the returns if he was overgrading - it would cost him around $10 in shipping for each return (initial+return). That's the kind of sellers I am looking for. Because of the easy returns on eBay if set up this way, I may never use Discogs for anything again other than release and pressing research.

     
  19. sunking101

    sunking101 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Yorkshire, England
    I only use Discogs as a last resort if I'm desperate for something that I can't get elsewhere. I would say that approx 50% of my dealings on there have been unsatisfactory. Ebay is much better but you have to bide your time. On Discogs what you want is there right now and allegedly in the condition you want but are you prepared to do the Discogs gamble...
     
  20. IllinoisCheesehead

    IllinoisCheesehead Forum Resident

    Location:
    Illinois
    Discogs is a gamble, but I have shelves of 40, 50 and even 60 year old records that I bought secondhand that are dead silent and play perfectly. A few of them came from other SH forum members. The majority from local shops. Many are of better quality than a lot of modern day pressings that I own. To say that they don’t exist is just plain wrong.
     
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  21. Doghouse Riley

    Doghouse Riley Forum Resident

    Location:
    North West England
    Discogs and eBay vendors make me smile sometimes.
    A while ago I was looking for a particular 45 by a relatively unknown artist, for one of my jukeboxes, but the prices asked were ridiculous.

    I've just checked eBay, there's still one available for £650.

    So I just downloaded it as an mp3 off YouTube and added it to an iTunes playlist on an iPod that I use one of my vintage jukebox wall boxes to select tracks to play through my vintage hi-fi.
    I don't play it that often, same with others I have. "But it's there."
     
    Rattlin' Bones likes this.
  22. theMot

    theMot Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    I’ve mentioned it countless times in these threads but I’ll say it again. Discogs could fix a lot of this over grading issue if they made sellers have to provide images with their listings for anything over a set amount, say $30 usd. Sure, you can’t pick a lot issues but if a seller can’t grade a sleeve properly which you could see with images then good luck with them accurately grading a record.
     
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  23. Rattlin' Bones

    Rattlin' Bones Grumpy Old Deaf Drummer

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    Discogs should not provide any images at all. That makes it incumbent on seller to post images, just like eBay. No images then fewer sales for those sellers. If a seller posts 10 images compared to seller who posts 1, then I'm guessing the 10-image seller gets more sales.

    Also, the best service eBay offers is when seller chooses free returns. eBay handles the return prepaid shipping label and the refund, which is virtually instant. That makes it a totally risk-free transaction for buyer, which increases buyer confidence at outset, which in turn increases seller sales. And I bet sellers who offer those types of refunds are accurately grading LP's, or else they'd lose a lot of money having to refund 100% of original purchase price including shipping, plus return shipping.

     
  24. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Gee, the way this thread is playing out you'd think it only happens with Vinyl. :wtf: It does happen with CD's as well, but of coarse there is no playback noise problems. I just find the sellers who more often than not under grade and go from there rather than stress out about it.
     
    Rattlin' Bones likes this.
  25. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Forum Resident

    Location:
    SF Peninsula
    LOL

    I tried to explain it to them saying there is no such thing as mint. Nothing but arguments on that even though they will say the grading system is BS. 90% of the complainers here that buy off discogs say they will only buy a record listed as mint. If you're a seller of the most common beautiful records in V++ & EX, and buyers are only buying mint listings of course you're going to list that way to sell your stock. It's a no brainer with that invisible grading line to what is mint in a persons mind.

    The vast majority of records are VG+ IMHO, from there it swings to the bad and to a little better. Most people will not even bother to try and sell a Poor or Good record online, it's like whats the point the buyer will never be happy with it.
     
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