Owned physical media and/or downloaded music vs streaming services.

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Price.pittsburgh, Oct 28, 2017.

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  1. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I am sorry but I truly seem to be misunderstood. My original stance was referring to people that say owning anything like...physical media and using streaming services as a replacement is better.

    To put this down swiftly, it is saying a bought license with no peer reviewed save state is the answer because some generations think that their "get rid of it all, physical is dead!" ideology is somehow king.

    That is the mediocrity I speak of. Great men have surrounded themselves with books for knowledge. They go to them but not like the posers that go to the internet typing up the latest wikipedia entry. The difference with the great men is that they understand the knowledge and don't just parrot it like the so many experts that think they know better. With me (and I am not great man) I know what I know because I had to work for it. It is my blood sweat and tears that put that ownership on the wall, not just some membership like the public library at your fingertips. Sure I can get that membership but does that mean I actually read it it all because it is there? What is on my wall has been watched and listened to and read and earned because I took the time to cherish it.

    Not that a library card or a netflix membership is a bad thing. Renters are important...

    What annoys me, let's go back to the quote from you.

    "This is when the futility of materialism becomes most evident, as much of the stuff we spent good money for we can't even give away- or it fetches pennies on the dollar."

    First of all, by definition unless one is buying things strictly for profit instead of enjoying it than there is going to be items sold in the future that give you less than what you have paid for. Anything mass produced is going to run this risk. Unless you live to be 50o years old (and even then), most of what you have is going to be of very little value in your lifetime.

    Of course the "pennies on the dollar" mentality is the thinking that what you have collected didn't have worth while you had it? If it did, than yes you were foolish indeed and did not know how to spend your money. In other words, if you bought something that didn't give you as in yourself some kind of value than what is the point? Does one just buy just to buy...now that is pathetic. I am giving buzz words to make a point. This is nothing personal. I actually quite like buying some things just to buy it, but when it becomes your collection something is wrong...correction when it becomes part of your permanent collection, something is really wrong.

    Everything I have bought and keep in my collection has been a great value to me. Most of what I have is still what I enjoy for the next 30 or so years. My tastes have not changed all that much because I have stayed true to myself. Some that have regretted their collection or sold with the hope for profit I have questioned. The ones that are crying about that they have not been getting what they think they should are either A. Unaware of the concept of supply and demand or B. bought complete and utter garbage that they too see no use in (poser...or they are just poor salesman).

    So hope that clarifies what annoys me. That and the bigger supposed "folly" that you are ruled by what you own concept. I made my decisions as an adult and I have no regret for the that vast majority of what I have purchased. I know why I have done it, and I don't think it is going to be some big savings account to tap into whenever I choose. I have lived a lifetime knowing that physical media will get you about 1/5th of what you paid if you are lucky. In my own lifetime I usually get half because I am choosy about what I buy. That is a sweet deal because I also factor in that I enjoyed it for all that time!

    Do I get surprises, absolutely. Selling the complete Friday the 13th on bluray for 300 bucks was awesome considering I paid ~40 bucks for it used (or new, I lose track). And it is awesome because I know it isn't worth that (even though it was a pretty good set of fun brainless movies). Now do I feel a little dig because it is now going for $800. Never underestimate the power of stupid on people. Beanie Babies went for more, didn't mean they were truly worth it.

    I love Fight Club, but I never bought the quote "the things you own end up owning you" in the way people think it applies to society. He was talking to Norton who is an example of a person that thinks that owning stuff just to own it is the answer to your life (poser). I own what I own because it helps me as a person to love, to cherish to feel to think. If it is all gone tomorrow (and it may very well be)...so what. It never owned me. Hell, if I were to lose it, I would just go collect it all again (if the insurance money didn't do it quicker)...why...because my KISS albums are just as much a part of me as they think it is a part of them :laugh:. Did KISS the band form because they are individuals, or is the reason they are on my wall have to do with the fact that they are a reflection of the ideals that I so cherish. Yeah if I die someday soon, you can bet there is going to be a copy of Alive! really really close by.

    I hope this explains it just a little closer. That and when I hear Norton say "I thought this would be the last couch" I chuckle. Are you kidding me? I will never be happy with the "last couch". There is always a better couch. And after I bust it apart and burn it, or trade it, sell the scrap metal....there is a shiny new one just waiting for me to plant my ass in. In the end, it is just a place for my ass or to drop food in. I just love being a consumer. It reminds me of the fact that I am still alive.
     
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  2. JimW

    JimW In the Process of Becoming

    Location:
    Charlottesville VA
    Thanks for the in-depth clarification, @genesim. I understand where you're coming from, though my perspective is a bit different.
     
  3. Hot Ptah

    Hot Ptah Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    That is the truth right there. There is that famous speech by President George W. Bush after 9/11, when he urged Americans to travel and shop as a response to terrorists. There was definitely a cultural feeling in the 1990s and 2000s that consumer spending drove the U.S. economy and that it was a good thing. Until the economic downturn of late 2008, housing value kept rising in the U.S., so if you got too far into debt with all your spending, you could just refinance your home and pay off the debt, or do even more spending with the money. Then the party ended in late 2008. I think that a lot of people did some soul searching after late 2008 and considered what all of the consumer spending and the accumulation of stuff had done for their lives.
     
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  4. Hot Ptah

    Hot Ptah Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    This is a helpful clarification. I actually thought very much like you do, until my divorce and the Court ordered sale of my home in the fall of 2015. Then I was forced to very quickly make decisions on what to do with our accumulated thirty three year mountain of stuff, as my ex-wife took a limited number of things she wanted and left all of the rest for me to deal with. The new owners of my house were moving in fifteen days later. That focuses your mind in a hurry on what stuff is important, what you want to save and use and treasure, and what you want to get rid of.

    I kept my music, DVD and book collections because I never bought them for profit, but to use and enjoy. I do worry about leaving my sole heir, my 21 year old daughter, with the headache of disposing of them if I were to die suddenly, especially as I went through the problem of what to do with a lot of other stuff. If I had been able to stream since 1970, that problem would not be here.
     
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  5. JimW

    JimW In the Process of Becoming

    Location:
    Charlottesville VA
    I agree w/ everything you said, though I'd say as a culture we've been bred from day one to believe that spending is a good thing. I'm coming from the perspective of a Boomer, so I grew up being inundated w/ mass media messages (esp. TV, which grew up w/ us) to buy!buy!buy! and that we needed the next big thing. If something is missing in your life, just find something to buy to fill that hole. My parents went through the depression and had a very different take on spending vs. saving, but by the time I was a teen (even before), there was enough prosperity in this country for whites that even middle-class could put good $ into savings and still engage in conspicuous consumption. In the 60's and 70's we were still judging people by their wealth: according to the good ol' protestant work ethic, the better you lived your life, the more wealth you obtained, so people's characters were judged at least partly on how good their house, car, etc. were.

    I personally believe that modern humans were cultivated as consumers as part of the control by the 1%. I won't go into details, as that's probably too political already. Suffice it to say I think we'd all be a lot better off if we put our $, time and effort into people-focused improvements rather than material improvements. I love my HDTV (probably way too much), but I was fine w/ CRT. I think I'd be much happier still watching that if the improvements that have gone into TV were made in social problems.

    But that's not the way the world works. The bottom line is the bottom line.
     
  6. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Divorce sucks, been through it too. Again, bought a T-shirt.

    As for burdening our sons and daughters, what is the burden? Drop that off at Goodwill. Though I am happy to say that my family shares tastes. It won't get dropped off as quickly because this stuff does not get old.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    You see I have to be honest, I think some things are being over complicated. CRT monitors are huge, heavy, and inefficient on energy. While they no question produce great color and have lightning fast refresh rates, HDTV are a godsend. This is a great time for entertainment. I guess I don't see it as bleak. Media has never ever looked better.

    As for the judgment, not in my neighborhood (which is quite rural being very close to East St. Louis for a large part of my life), you cherish what you have and don't give a rats ass about what others think of it.

    Humans cultivated? Sorry, cannot agree with this. To possess is nature and down to a dog wanting a bone, you cannot change that. Although I "consume" to help myself, not others. I seek knowledge like a voracious appetite just like that robot in Short Circuit in needing "more data".

    You can't take it with you is what I say (and Frank Capra actually).

    I agree with people focused improvements which is why the arts are so important like Music/Movies/Printed words...sharing of ideas. That is what I preserve, not a stupid interior design or a better car that's only purpose is to get me from point A to Z. I live smaller so I can afford the things that matter...which is surrounding myself with Music/Movies/Printed word. To each his own I guess, but swag (which I call all the BS you put into your house) is the true waste. Though I do like appliances for cooking food and exercise equipment. Quite essential for sure...and booze of course.
     
  7. JimW

    JimW In the Process of Becoming

    Location:
    Charlottesville VA
    OK- your turn to misunderstand me. I wasn't saying anything is bleak in entertainment- I said I love my HDTV. I was just saying that if we put the $, time and effort into solving/ameliorating people-focused problems instead of making better TV's, cars, etc., we'd all be a lot more content, even if we had to still be using the technology of the 60's or 70's. I agree it's a great time for entertainment, But I also believe one of entertainment's functions is to distract us from real problems.

    I also agree that art is an excellent source for helping to understand and better the world. But imo while art may be entertaining, it is completely different from entertainment. Entertainment (at least in this country, from my perspective) is usually devoid of any meaning, depth or lasting value. It does nothing to aid the human condition other than distract us from it. And entertainment has come to predominate over art now.

    I assume since you don't believe humans are cultivated, you put little power in the hands of the media. I doubt any discussion of this would change either of our minds, but regardless, again this is too political to get into here. Let me just say that I truly believe life is so much more than what we experience in modernity; that many things we take as a given are not true; and that we make it all up as we go along. What we know for sure is infinitesimally small in the scope of things.

    Yes, it's natural for humans to want to acquire. It's also natural for humans to kill and rape. We are just evolved animals after all. But my understanding of evolution includes using our minds to fight against those urges which are destructive. We've come a long way in combating our violent tendencies (still plenty to go though), but the fight against possessing things has gone the other way (likely b/c we didn't recognize the harmful consequences)- though the tide seems like it might be turning...
     
  8. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    And this is where we disagree. "Entertainment" is the open door to empathy. We can learn through the expression of humans/artists without actually experiencing the exact circumstances. You say go into solving people focused problems while looking at the stark contradiction that arts are actually help to do just that!

    I agree with a lot of this, but a good fart joke is pretty cool indeed. I was listening to some Bring Crosby outtakes and someone gives the rasberry and he cracks up. I have to admit that it was a welcome departure and made me appreciate his work all the more...just from that.

    I think humans are humans and they can be influenced in lots of ways just like the "media" is an art in and of itself. It is not true that I don't think humans can't be cultivated...of course I can also say humans can be uncultivated...potateo...potaughto.... But yes, I don't believe the government or art is the boogeyman. What happens is a product of our times. Of course I also am a realist and that is why I am debating this right now. The push away from possessing, is also the push away from being held accountable in preserving history. After watching Mad Men, I had a new found appreciation for advertising and I welcome it even more now.

    Again, I guess we agree to disagree but possessing things is not the boogeyman, and the killing and raping has not been "evolved" one iota. It still goes on in a thousand ways and not just sexually or literally. While it is kind of philosophical, in the grand scheme it is this latest kind of indoctrination move away from possessing is more dangerous than the act itself. As if our rights to possess a save state should be extinguished so no one can be held accountable for the history of our world?

    I am sorry, but when I see so many great things being restored and historically set straight by independent companies, I say it is a very good thing indeed that we possess to preserve history!

    Possessing is natural, and matter is neither created nor destroyed...we pick it up, we put it down...big deal. Let the people decide what they want (as I respect your view that we should stop possessing even if I completely disagree with it) and the chips fall where they may.
     
  9. JimW

    JimW In the Process of Becoming

    Location:
    Charlottesville VA
    I appreciate your thorough response, but feel as if we're going around in circles. We'll just agree to disagree. But I would like to know more about how Mad Men increased your appreciation for advertising. We must have been watching a different show! (Perception IS everything) What I saw was a group of morally-bankrupt, bottom-line-driven men who were perfecting the "art" of manipulating people's emotions to get them to feel a need/desire for something they didn't really need. The very embodiment of those who helped evolve our growing materialism.

    So- I'm wondering what you saw?

    EDIT- as for letting the people decide, I don't think we ever decide anything. Any real decisions are made by the 1%. Just my opinion, I know you see it differently. I am rather cynical...
     
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  10. melstapler

    melstapler Reissue Activist

    If indeed it's true that less than 1% of songs result in 86% of streaming, then I think that says a lot about the state of the industry. Many consumers aren't being exposed to the diverse selection of available music and it's impossible to appreciate something when you don't know it exists in the first place. Like puppeteers, streaming services are controlling and manipulating public opinion by showing favoritism toward their preferred artists/songs/styles.

    When a digital file stored on a consumer's home computer or a provider's server for streaming purposes can be removed or deleted at the click of a button, history can also be simultaneously erased. This revisionist mindset reminds me of how Hitler promoted propaganda and censorship by burning books and libraries were forced to stock material on their shelves which met his standards. If we continue to travel down a path of anti-physical media, history will repeat itself.
    Paying for streaming or downloading is the act of buying an intangible good. Streaming is basically renting, whereas having physical product allows you to own a copy of the music outright. As someone who used Netflix before they removed a great deal of content, I'm fearful the same thing could happen with streaming music. While I understand that some content on these streaming sites is removed due to licensing expiration or other legal issues, this means the film, tv series, album or song you planned on being able to hear could become no longer available at any given time. Regardless of whether or not you buy a family plan, nothing can entirely prevent content removal. For that reason, CDs and vinyl will remain my preferred formats.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2017
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  11. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I think this is a very sad outlook. Did you just watch one episode? That is like saying Star Wars is about just a bunch of space people, or that All in the Family was just a show about a biggot...etc.

    My appreciation for advertising is the use of human connection to sell products. They worked off of desires that were already there to begin with. As Don Draper said many times, he is not placing anything there that wasn't there already. It is funny how many of the characters accuse him of being manipulating or cold or just a suit with no emotions while each and every one of them that criticized have their own hypocrisy. If you look hard at Don's character, he was good at what he does because of where he comes from to survive.

    Which of course gets to what I have been saying all along where you think of us as going around in circles (which I am sorry, I have always found a bit offensive because it makes it sounds like there is no understanding on any of our parts?). These people like Don are not some boogey man. And the selling of physical product is not this evil and morally bankrupt....well anymore than any other industry or most importantly any group of people.

    I was just curious if you caught all the so called better people that were around Don (like the hippies, the small towns people toward the end, even some of the women that went along with it) who in my opinion were so much worse. They claim to be be so much more evolved while completely ignoring that not only did they beg for and take handouts at every turn, but they also whored themselves so much that it actually made Don..."the suit" that they judged look like the good guy (not that he ever really was a bad guy, he was a great complex character that was the pulse of the entire show). That to me is what made the show so good. If what you saw is just this "bottom line" than I feel really sad, because I think you entirely missed the point of the show. Look at Peggy, Pete (I still crack up with him and how he takes on the world), Joan, etc...who you might say are just a part of the system...I say they are the system.

    I stand by my decisions I have made and I know what advertisers do and I applaud it. I actually get a kick out of it. 1% are you kidding? Have you forgotten about the rest of the 99% that actively follow those decisions? I guess we are all just robots with no moral choices. It is like that statement in Cloud Atlas where you would be saying you are just a drop in the ocean, and the character says...and what is the ocean but a bunch of drops? Advertising is so important and that is the statement of the very recording sitting on the shelf for us to look at that pretty package. Even the White Album made a statement and the very thought of the Beatles selling us what they made....thank goodness for that. Is John Lennon supposed to keep all his work in his head? The Advertisers are selling us what is already there (again what Don has pushed from the beginning of the show).

    I once heard a great man say that the world is not driven by the bad people and that the bleak only outlook is often painted by ignorant. This is not meant to sound harsh, but have you ever seen that so called "clever" video "Pale Blue Dot". I choose to look at the world through the eyes of George Burns in Oh God Book II instead. You have to have "bad" to have the "good" and eliminating either robs people of the ability to have comparison. In the end, there is no "good" or "bad" but a vital order of things that says...yes too much materialism is not good, but eliminating the need to possess and more importantly have accountability, is also a very very bad thing. Hence Melstapler's post above that illustrates it beautifully.

    Although I would like to add....."Free Americans can still read them....if they made it to American circulation".
     
  12. Hot Ptah

    Hot Ptah Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    That would be quite a day at Goodwill if my collection got dropped off there. "What is this stuff? There are over 150 LPs of some guy named Sun Ra. Those can just go into the dumpster, who would want that stuff."
     
  13. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    You would be surprised at how many thing I have picked up and flipped for profit because of the people that just basically threw it away. What I don't get is the people that complain about Goodwill basically doing the same by grinding up the materials and refurbishing them. I say if profit can be had, go for it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  14. Sid Hartha

    Sid Hartha Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The Midwest
    Wow. And this is after a Gort cleaned it up for you. I can't dare imagine how it originally read.

    Anyway, congratulations. Godwin's law - Wikipedia
     
  15. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I think comparing the removal of physical media and indoctrination is like book burning and I understand the example. Although I don't think it is just one hate group that has done it. I do think that anti-physical media is very very dangerous thinking.

    The post has been relatively unchanged save for a few pictures for illustration. What is wrong with the paragraph you have quoted?

    And for the record Godwin's law is a joke. It sounds like something that the hate group talked about would say is a reason to invalidate sound arguments. Book burning existed with the most recent hate group in massive proportion, but of course mentioning that is hyperbole? Yeah ok.

    This is getting political, and I have made my point.

    People in the end will do what they want. I just wanted to throw my hat in the ring because it is important to preserve history in a valid save state. Leaving all power to the studios...or worse the maggot providers is just wrong.
     
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  16. broshfab4

    broshfab4 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Sorry to hear of your sadness. Couldn't be farther from the truth on my end, my friend. Don't care about heirs or kin, only care about the collection and my listening room and could not be happier!
     
  17. broshfab4

    broshfab4 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    My physical media collection cannot be altered by the whim of some corporation or the CD's suddenly compressed or remixed without my permission. That's what I call freedom my friend!
     
  18. Hot Ptah

    Hot Ptah Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    My feelings were the same as yours for 42 years, from 1970-2012.
     
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  19. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    Your CDs are safe from that, but are they safe from degradation/rot?
     
  20. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    Physical. All I have to say is: When communications go down, the rest are out of luck.
     
  21. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Plastic and Aluminum and Epoxy it is simple scientific fact that all are stable for hundreds of years. When manufactured right which is well over 99%...they are just fine. Don't...don't....don't believe the hype.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    What seriously changed? I have moved as well. Constantly. CD's are not worthless. They are a great source of high quality continuous disc at once goodness. LP's are high definition even when played a lot.

    I know a man that had close to 700,000 LP's. He took them to an auction and got paid. Funny after all the years of supporting LP, he kept his CD's. That was silly. A lot of gold there. He could have paid a kid (or me actually) to take them off his hands. He had two rooms packed to the gills. I am not kidding. It was obscene.

    Of course he was happy as can be to retire and move on. I did not see regret on his face. He had a new frame of mind, and that I can identify with. I am sure it will happen to me...on some of it. The rest, sorry, but everyone has to deal with death and what to do with their parents crap. I am not looking forward to mine in some ways, but in other ways I do enjoy selling. I put in the time and get the money and the rest go into the dumpster or Goodwill. Matter is neither created nor destroyed and I have never felt bad about the former if done smart.
     
  22. HenryFly

    HenryFly Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    Your CD collection is greener than Spotify

    Spotify may have made some inroads into the problem of its servers' high energy consumption since this article from 2012, still it's serious food for thought for those of us who stream and take their own environmental impact seriously.
    As the article states, the least environmentally damaging way to listen to huge music collections will continue to be on your own very large media server at home.
    On another issue, I liked the estimate above from 2012 that all the music ever recorded could fit on a 1 petabyte drive that could cost only $100 at some point in the near future. ;)
     
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  23. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    Right...which is why there a numerous threads here which lament the fact that CDs/DVDs can no longer be played...:rolleyes:
     
  24. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    If a server was stable like optical disc you bet! Of course it kind of stinks when you go back in the car and need the internet again.

    Optical disc is the most green with the most cheap storage.

    The problem with all of this... is access speed. Is anything faster than me grabbing disc and putting it in drive and hitting play and maintaining the best quality?
    Out of how many? I have a collection that eclipses most. Other than a crappy used CD that was abused, no I am not buying it.

    The scientific facts do not support that it is a problem.

    Now manufacturing errors are another story. Do you take that into your judgment?

    In all my cases I call and get the replacement.

    The "numerous" are actually not that much, but a few complaints makes it out to be an epidemic. Sorry, but again the facts seem to disagree. I have CD's that I had since the late 80's that play just fine. This proves that when done right it is a non-issue. Lets see if licenses stay around that long. I bet my CD outlives them too.:D
     
  25. Grant

    Grant Senior Member

    Location:
    United States
    You can back up a download.
     
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