This is the latest and greatest from the Pass Labs First watt stable. The SIT amps are suppose to be closest to the single ended triode sound without the limitations of the SETs. Srajan has given it a huge thumbs up in his review in the 6moons. Some people have compared it directly to the Kondo amps and have found the SIT to be up there among the best. Has anyone heard it ?
I have heard them with Lowther OB speakers. Undoubtedly they are still solid state sounding amps; they do not have the holographic soundstage and imaging of a really good tube amp. The midrange on the SIT-2 was very nice. But the FirstWatt J2 is just as good at a fraction of the price and offering more power. Don't take this as a dig against 6moons because I like that Srajan supports Nelson's smaller projects, but he's loved every FW amp, and he is right, all the ones I've heard are great.
Really appreciate your response. Generally which tube amps do you really like ? Just a few names so that I can draw some inference.
The best amps I've heard were custom built. One using Lundahl amorphous core iron the other Tribute, both DHT and very overbuilt. For commercial amps I've really like the Kondo Ongaku and Allnic Audio amps. I could easily live with the Allnic amps, one was 300B S/E the other (I think) push pull. The FirstWatt amps are a stunning value and Pass/FW customer service is exceptional (they have enough parts to support these amps for decades and decades). My next speakers will be 98-99 db/w if I had to go SS the FirstWatt amps would be one of my few considerations.
I agree that the best SS and best tubes will still have certain virtues that will seperate them fundamentally. After all it is like comparing petrol and diesel engines. They have a certain character which is unique. However the question should be how far the SIT2 takes the game forward in the sense that one gets close to the best of both worlds ? Will a tube guy find the SIT2 attractive enough ?
To detail a bit more my preferences- when I'm auditioning amps I'm looking for a transparent detailed sound, but remains "holographic", ie being able to see into the music. So my preference is for direct heated driver and output tubes with large output transformers (for full frequency response) using modern/exotic core material. I like the same qualities in speakers so I tend to prefer electrostatic speakers and some (no horn shout) modern horn designs. So my amp preferences would be very different from someone looking at a traditional tube amp. This is why I like the FirstWatt amps. A tube guy that has preferences different from mine might hate it. Tube amps I do not tend to favor are most pentode amps, amps with lots of negative feedback, overly colored amps, etc. What the SIT and J2 have going for them is their very low distortion at low powers. Just like the transparent tube amps I tend to like. But for me, they still do not close the gap between the best tube amps. Best thing you can do is audition the SIT to see if it's to your taste.
Read very carefully, and then read again. Srajan said he is selling off any remaining DHT power amps he posses because the Pass Labs SIT(2) (he's waiting for silver face plated model ordered, hates black HiFi) in combination with a single stage DHT 101D or 10Y preamp is perhaps the best all around combo in HiFi. For nothing is perfect, but this is close enough. To me, that is saying quite a bit... http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt14/1.html
A few things to keep in mind- 6Moons are only reviewing products that will advertise with them. FirstWatt are a huge advertiser with 6Moons, so having a FW amp as his primary amp certainly benefits both companies. That's my only caveat. The SIT amps are the best solid state amps I've ever heard, easily beating several five figure SS amps including Pass XA.5 There was another reviewer that compared it to a 300B (Wavac?) written in a bit more plain English and his review followed my thoughts on how the FW SIT sounded. Sometimes I have trouble fully understanding Srajan's writing
Just to move these ideas and my understanding perhaps a little further, have you ever experienced well executed OTL power amps? I ask this as an owner and continued admirer of their dynamic speed and textural layering with good but not excessive coloring. Mine are Atma-Sphere OTL which seem to bloom a bit more generously than say, Berning's ZOTL offerings. Anyway, I have heard nothing that equals it, and the level of transparency lets one "see into the performance" like nothing I have heard from my limited experience with DHT. What entices me here in the First Watt SIT2 is the relative, care free utility and entirely lacking the "rise to fall" lifespan of even the best NOS valves, perfectly executed. The other decided benefit is one are not expecting a DHT to power loudspeakers, but in Srajan's "near-perfect" scenario, the DHT is employed to "perfume", and influence the sound at the preamp level and only required to produce a line level output (well within its ability and power strengths). As we may all well agree by this point, there are different strokes for different folks, with varying tastes and dispositions, yet a truly magical system performance comes from a synergy and that collaboration being greater than the mere sum of the parts. So I am compelled to read what Srajan is saying in context, rather than try to pull out portions of content and apply them to abstract examples. It equally sparks my interest that he would comment, perhaps only a well executed OTL may be a competitor in this realm...
I have at home on demo a First Watt J2 amp, driving a pair of 96db efficient Tekton Lore Reference speakers. I like this amp so far. I have some experience over the years with tube amps, pp as well as single-ended, not any of the more exotic types. But I don't wish to get back into tubes for a variety of reasons. I am intrigued by what I have read about the SIT-2 amp. Now listening to the J2, and reading that you favorably compare the SIT with the J2, I wonder if you think it is worth my checking out a SIT amp if possible.....if there would be that much of a difference in sound. Cannot find anywhere that Srajan has directly compared any of the SIT amps with the J2.
I suppose the chances of you seeing this are slim, sorry for the late reply. I have not heard those amps in the same system. Both were so good that if I can't get a SET amp quiet enough for the Vitavox CD I could easily live with J2 or SIT-1/2. I would probably go for SIT-1/2 to fulfill some dogmatic audiophile nervosa
Sorry to resurrect this old thread but can anyone recommend a solid state integrated amp if the SET/SIT sound is what I'm after?
I have a couple of First Watt designs, the Aleph J and the M2. My take on these designs are like crossing a SS amp with a Tube amp (Not SET or SIT). Other than Nelson's designs, I doubt if you are going to find any SS amps that sound like SET's. While I have not had the opportunity to listen to the J2, I have it in my sights as to the next First Watt amp to acquire. Just waiting for a deal. As hvbias pointed out: "The midrange on the SIT-2 was very nice. But the First Watt J2 is just as good at a fraction of the price and offering more power" This will give you the best bang for the buck. As others have said, the SIT's sound good but most thought that they had a SS type sound, not tubes. $5k, is a considerable chunk of change. Reno Hifi is Nelson's primary First Watt dealer for the US and carries New, Used and Demo amps. Personally, I have no issues with either demo or used anything, designed and built by Nelson Pass. His reputation is impeccable. He simply won't build anything that is not up to snuff. What ever you buy, it may outlast you! Here is a link to their Used and Demo web page. Currently, they have a Demo SIT-2 for $3,195. They have three J2's, a Demo for $2,795 and two used ones, a newer one for $2,495 and one a little older for $200 less. If you want to get your feet wet, they have two M2's for $1,195 and $1,495. I have the M2 and think that is a great sounding amp. Just don't expect any of these to sound like Triode's, SET's or otherwise. The Aleph J is very detailed but I think that the M2 is a bit richer sounding and the M2 is my preference of the two. It is not at all a bad thing that they do not sound like a tube amp. My take on them is that they capture the immediacy and punch of SS while having a tube like smooth, not harsh sounding, really quite pleasant. (I have 4-tube amps and several SS amps to compare them to.) If you want to go SS, and still want that tube sound, you may be better off with some of the new class "D" stuff, from companies like Rogue or Peachtree. Rogue Sphinx 2, About the same price as a pre-loved M2, much more power, has excellent phono pre-amp, best choice for an all analog hybrid Integrated, with the pre-amp being tube and the power amp section class "D". Peachtree, you can purchase a refurbished unit off of eBay for around $600. Don't be fooled by the little window, where you can view the tube and thinking that it is a hybrid design, it is not. The tube does not provide voltage gain, it acts as a buffer to smooth out MP3 files that may be rather harsh and digital sounding. It can be taken in and out of the circuit with a button on the remote. The Peachtree is a good choice if you live both in a digital and analog world. I have several Peachtree products and highly recommend them. When they came out with the original iNova, it retailed for $1,800, with the regular Nova going for $1,300. These were considered to be a good value at the time for what you are getting. I own a lot of gear and I use the iNova, for it's quality Saber DAC and pre-amp. I use other amps as the power amps, because they are more powerful or sound better than their original analogue class A/B design. I was curious as to what their newer class "D" designs were unknown to me. I decided to buy a used one off of eBay ($400, first generation class "D"), a Decco65. I have been listening to it, the sound coming off of the iNova's DAC to a tube pre-amp and normally into Rogue M-150 mono blocks. Currently, I have substituted the Decco65 for the M-150's and they play very nicely through my horn loaded theater type speakers. No, they don't sound as nice as the M-150 (which would retail for about $5k today), but I do think that they do sound nice. Since then, they have improved their class "D" stuff 3x. You have some nice equipment listed in your profile and maybe some of these suggestions won't work for you as other suggestions might, but, these are some options that you may want to investigate. Good luck in your quest! Larry, A.K.A. SandAndGlass
SandandGlass have you heard the F5? I was surprised (make that very surprised) that I thought it was the best sounding of the FW amps; incredibly transparent and dynamic without any harshness unless it was in the recording. I now like it more than the SIT and J2.
I heard a First Watt F3 driving a pair of Klipsch Horns a bit over two years ago and came away thinking it was the best sounding solid-state amp that I have ever heard. I would love to hear either his SIT stereo or monoblock amps. If I ever move away from tubes the First Watt amps will be on the top of my list.
I have an M2 and I would echo SandAndGlass' well written comments. Rich tone and relaxed presentation. A real bargain at their current used prices. I also have an F3 which sounds very nice (and very similar to the M2), but if you are looking for a more "tubey" sound the M2 is a good way to go. Also the M2 draws 160w compared to 200w for most of Nelson's other designs, so it doesn't run quite as hot. I have not heard a SIT-2 but would love to!
Here's the problem with reviewers saying the SIT is better than SET or sound like a SET - SET amps don't even REMOTELY sound like other SET amps not even SET amps from the same manufacturer. Audio Note sells $10kish 2A3 amps and $10kish 300B and they don't sound alike and they probably use much of the same internal parts. So sure as heck the AN 300B isn't sounding exactly like a Wavac 300B. It's also possible to like the Wavac 300B more than an AN 300B but like the AN 2a3 better than the Wavac 2A3 (if they make one) but you get the idea. A SIT amp is always going to sound like a SIT amp - no changed available via tube rolling - so if it sounds like SET - WHICH SET???? Cause if it sounds like the AN 300B I won't love it - if it sounds like the Empress 2a3 I will love it but Fred the 300b lover won't. Now having said all that even though I like 2a3 better than 300B - I would far rather live with a 300B than ANY solid state, class D, or Tripath amplifier - so in this respect - if I absolutely didn't want to deal with tubes for whatever reason then give me an amp that sounds like a SET - First Watt (Nelson Pass) is certainly the front runner of SS makers I would consider. A few years back I was in discussion to get the first watt but I still don't have a preamp.
Although no two SETs sound completely alike, surely most of them have some things in common sonically which I would imagine is what the reviewers are referring to. The common denominators. If I get a First Watt then I'll be using a small signal tube preamp so I'll be able to tweak the sound that way.
And I could only add to what you say about nothing sounding like anything else, that as I have been commenting here, all along... Based on the context of how Srajan is listening, with a DHT preamp (which offers tube rolling) ahead of the SIT2, he believes he has the best synergy in his experience and for his ears. For me, this is telling, and I still must consider it as a possibility. Disagreeing with nothing you have said, yet putting the use of Nelson's SIT in a "context" where I personally, would not be capable of making the blanket statement that, I would not have "any" solid-state power amplification. Perhaps an SIT will always sound like an SIT but always different again based on the preamp ahead of it. I would still be willing to invest to hear that compo for myself. I understand that if in your experience leaving any preamp out of your kit outweighs what a DHT preamp/SIT combo could bring, then that is a choice one may have to make.
Yes, you are not wrong. All SET amps utilize an output transformer, no transformer is transparent. They don't have harmonic cancellation since they are single ended. The good vacuum tubes themselves (ie DHT that many SET use) are linear devices, it's the compromises built around them that cause them to have a particular sound. No FW amp has an output transformer (F6 has an input transformer, but it is high nickel with no gap). Many of them are single ended. These days I would gladly take a good FW amp over any SET amp. Try out the F5, J2 or either of the SIT amps. You may never go back to tube SET again or you might prefer the tubes. I recommend Reno Hifi in Nevada, they are one of the best online dealers. Their demo/refurb units could pass for new. If you like to listen to music like Bruckner, Mahler, free jazz I hear transient smearing on every SET amp I've heard including ones with plenty of wattage overhead like the Lamm GM70.
Hybias, You seem very knowledgeable about amplifier architecture, might I ask for your opinion about what I have been commenting on in this thread about Srajan of 6moons choice to feed the power amp SIT2 with a preamp 101D DHT to get a preferred sonic solution. It appears many folks are missing the point here that if you use a DHT for flavor or the "perfume" of the sound, asking it only to achieve a line level output from the preamp, and then power your drivers with the 10 watts of solid state from the SIT, and you may well be closer to achieving sonic nirvana. It is a matter of putting each component to its capable task. Does this appear sound in its premise?
Ha ha there are guys that could write encyclopedias on what I don't know. I like correlating what I hear with design philosophies/guidelines and measurements so I can advance my own knowledge and take my system further. It's hard to say what Srajan is hearing, I prefer to only speak about my own experiences. I've never heard a DHT preamp, but personally I am attracted to the idea. There is a group of guys in the UK that have taken this concept very far, using "esoteric" practices like solid state current sources, filament bias, etc that the tube die hards would look down on without hearing for themself. Their subjective and objective measurements are all very good. They certainly have measurements that no SET power amp could remotely approach. I might try it out at some point, frankly these days my focus is on speakers, room treatment, building a great sounding room and distributed subs for flat in room bass response. On the other hand if you have some horn screamer I doubt a DHT preamp would do much good, that is where a SET amp with its low damping and all the other things I mentioned in the previous post might help out.
