Passing Judgement on Audio Quality

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Khorn, Sep 15, 2021.

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  1. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Food quality can mean nutritional quality like, high protein low fat, or it can mean a fatty marbled steak. Audio reproduction is a particular task -- to reproduce the signal on the recording. Audio reproduction quality = how well the audio system reproduces the recording. It's more cut and dried.

    What has happened to the world of hifi is that it's no long about hifi, ie, high fidelity or "audio quality" as defined by accurate reproduction. It's now a solipsistic, self-centered enterprise that just about "what I like" as an individual listener. It kind of reflects what's happened I think to Western culture in the last 40 years. We've become narcissistic, self-centered, obsessed with our own feelings and satisfaction and pleasure, and the boundaries of what we consider "good" and "quality" kind of stop and start at what we personally enjoy or don't enjoy, what gives us pleasure or not.

    Of course, we want to eat food when enjoy the taste and texture of. And we might enjoy food that's not really of high nutritional quality, or ingredient quality -- like we might enjoy a bag of Doritos, or a big wad of artificially colored cotton candy. We also might enjoy big boomy bass playing an 808 beat on our bass heavy headphones or our car subwoofers. That's fine, people like what they like.

    But when we feel compelled to announced that what we like is "quality" and that others should share it, we're of into a different social realm I think, putting ourselves and our individual tastes at the center of the universe. And, relatedly, when the only thing we concern ourselves with is our own pleasures and tastes, we kind of lose touch with one another and any sort of shared values. You know, does the performance of the gear matter at all? Or is the only that matters each of our own personal, individual, subjective experiences?
     
  2. Agitater

    Agitater Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    That could actually turn into a hilariously entertaining thread.

    How about a “How Good Is My System… Seriously” thread? It would be a thread in which analysis of different systems would be restricted to getting the very best out of existing components and speakers in an existing listening room. Only inexpensive/moderately priced cables allowed (and then only for the replacement of electrically defective existing cables). I’d bet real money that most of the audibly problematic systems could be dramatically improved not by equipment changes or modifications but instead by revised speaker positioning and placement to take best advantage of existing room acoustics and best serve the preferred listening position in a reorganized listening room. I’d bet more real money that most of the audibly problematic systems could also be improved by rearranging the furniture, strategic placement of a populated bookshelf, and so on, not to mention selecting a new listening position in the process. It’s true for dedicated listening rooms, multi-purpose rooms and family rooms alike.

    Most of the music lovers or audiophiles (or whatever we choose to call them) who contact me to ask for help improving their systems already own perfectly good electronic equipment and at least passable speakers. The assembled system is rarely optimized and rarely set up (speakers in particular) to best advantage, and the room itself is rarely organized and appointed to best advantage (irrespective of WAF and other similar considerations or requirements). Because a good sounding system that is well-placed in a comfortably and/or sensibly reorganized listening room typically sounds dramatically better and helps make the room much more interesting and inviting, former WAF issues often disappear because the room becomes something that someone who was formerly opposed to it begins to like and use an awful lot more.

    It is far too easy to spend money and get . . . nowhere. When a room and listening space and system have been blended to all do their cooperative best, only then does an audiophile truly know how well his equipment can sound and how much more enjoyable music listening can be. After that optimization and speaker placement and room reorganization effort - and only after that - every single change of component or cartridge or DAC or amp or speaker will then be plainly obvious, for better or worse, and there’ll be no guessing or product marketing-based self-deception involved.
     
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  3. brockgaw

    brockgaw Forum Resident

    Or; How do you like my system? GFY!
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
    Agitater, jonwoody, WvL and 1 other person like this.
  4. WildPhydeaux

    WildPhydeaux Forum Resident

    That would be a fun thread if everyone could be even handed and good natured about it. Which has happened zero times in the history of Internet forum discussion. "Last Amp Standing".

    Cheers,
    Robert
     
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  5. Sterling1

    Sterling1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    I have too many hobby interests. One of my favorites is US Service Rifle Competition. There's a lot of opinions out there about it but unlike opinions about audio/video where it's difficult to separate the wheat from waste by chaff, after the dust settles and the smoke clears in shooting matches it's quite clear who you would want to take advise from, those who win. Too bad there are not competitions of some sort that could define the audio/video reviewers we would want to take advise from.
     
  6. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    If I were building a new house with an A/V “wing” I’d just hire a Theatre Design Architecture Company pre construction, state my objectives and then let them take it from there. Wouldn’t you? :D
     
  7. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

    I've never looked at a measurement, comparability is the job of the retailer when they dem.

    The question for me is does the system have the ability to convey the emotional aspects of the music
     
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  8. Tim Irvine

    Tim Irvine Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    I like the food analogy. I can read a recipe, often just a list of ingredients but usually containing specific preparation and cooking instructions, and tell pretty much what the finished dish is going to be like, but only after it is cooked and served can I truly and completely judge it. I can tell much of what the capabilities and sonic characteristics of certain audio components will be by reading the analytical information, but I cannot truly judge it fully unless I listen to it in my room with my stuff. I can triangulate pretty well from reviews, especially if I am familiar with the reviewer and the degree to which his/her preferences line up with mine, but buying before hearing carries risks. That does not mean it always or even often works out poorly, just as ordering a dish that Joe Bastianich says is terrific will likely be pretty safe for me.
     
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  9. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    When I am looking for a place to eat I might look at the menu, the reviews, their story, etc. Pre look at the information before selecting where I go to eat. Kinda like looking at audio specs.

    For instance, if I despise Mexican, gonna bypass that right away. They use fresh, local ingredients, I'm gonna put right away on the potential list. A tiny bookshelf, nope, not going to look there.
     
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  10. KL-lite

    KL-lite Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    I think everyone would agree it is impossible to know how a piece of equipment sounds going by printed specs alone.
    But at the same time one can dismiss certain speakers without even listening, going by the specs alone.
     
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  11. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    Very true. For instance I feel many people make the mistake of underestimating the power requirements that enable speakers perform up to their potential. Sure you can drive speakers with lower power and experience “good sounding music” but maybe not up to the true SQ potential of the speakers themselves. In other words wasting the ultimate potential of speakers you may have substantially invested in.

    This is just my own experience and reflects my personal taste.
     
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  12. KL-lite

    KL-lite Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur
    I can relate, and oftentimes it has to do with budget. Inevitably many people have to start with a basic low powered amp due to budget (more so if they bought into "speakers first" idea), and speaker companies giving a range for amp power like 10-150watts gives a (maybe false?) sense of security.
     
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  13. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    You can’t hear it ‘till you hear it.
     
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  14. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    This. To a tee.

    For all the obsessing over fripperies, extra components, additional layers that I suspect often get in the way of good sound to the point that the buyer loses track of where they're at. Accessories that are fresh straight out the twilight zone and the rest, but the biggest change once all the main components are in place that I've ever discovered and it's been repeated many times, is the movement of speakers by even a few inches either way. More than any cable, mains plug or similar. Great post.
     
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  15. AP1

    AP1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    TX
    Specs are a starting point. There is little value in listening equipment that has bad specs to begin with. If it has good specs, then it is worth to listen to find if it sounds good too. That way you can filter out something that is unlikely be good. There are few exceptions, but overall you will be better only dealing with gear that pass initial paper based filter.
     
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  16. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    Of course initially specs are important to determine if the equipment in question is an electronic match. This in no way is going to tell you if it’s a synergistic matchup. That you can only determine through actual listening.
     
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  17. pez

    pez Forum Resident

    Location:
    uk
    It takes me days and sometimes weeks to tell audio quality. I find first impressions in this regard ain’t always accurate. What can sound amazing at first listen can quickly become tiresome, or terrible with other genres.
     
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  18. Calvin_and_Hobbes

    Calvin_and_Hobbes Music Lover

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    100%. Many people prefer simple answers to help them make decisions, but sometimes reality is not that simple.
    Stated in another way, some people are happier feeling like they know the "truth" in order to not have to then expend any additional effort to understand the full truth.
     
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  19. dmcnelly

    dmcnelly Grammy Award Loser

    Location:
    Michigan
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian Thread Starter

    I agree. My next move is to add about another 10,000 sq ft to my house (the neighbours might not be too enthralled as they’d be displaced) but be that as it may. Then I can just imagine the huge corners I could build for my Klipschorns. I think that they would be extremely happy.
     
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  21. jonwoody

    jonwoody Tragically Unhip

    Location:
    Washington DC
    Or pictures in front of our systems flipping a bird to the camera.
     
  22. Juan Matus

    Juan Matus Reformed Audiophile

    Good post. Seems like we could be moving past the "what I like" to "what does the algorithm say I should like" at some point soon . Sort of joking but not really.
     
  23. jtw

    jtw Forum Resident

    I think you'd find out that picking equipment by using your ears may not be any better, considering bias from appearance, price, slick ads, and good salesmen.
     
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  24. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    Factors leading to tossups and derision relevant to this inconclusive approach:
    -a difference in the owners' and observers' lifestyle, listening history, sound preference
    -the thickness in the shag carpet in front of the speakers
    -the owners' and observers' differences of opinion about the music they are using for eveluation
    -the undercurrent of personal relations between the members
    -the inaccurate descriptions of the dimensions of the room
    -Beatles
     
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  25. Tone?

    Tone? Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I think some aspects of sound can be quantified but others cannot.

    I just use whatever is at my disposal and then my ears. measurements are a good tool in someone’s arsenal for choosing gear, but not the end all.
    It’s gonna be used by me anyway so my final judgements is all that counts.
     
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