Paul McCartney Flaming Pie Archive Collection Speculation Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by jlf, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. Wingsfan2012

    Wingsfan2012 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Junior's Farm, IL
    Partly and also it is much easier to keep the 2 CD in the car for my car stereo than digging out the box set each time. Plus many of the 2 CD sets had Best Buy exclusives!
     
  2. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    a) HearMusic reissued a bunch of CDs, likely because stock of the original EMI-Capitol ones were finally running low.
    b) Capitol re-released the entire catalogue digitally in 2007, so the back catalogue was available to anyone who wanted it.
    c) If the 2 CD reissues were all done at once, it would likely have hurt the sales and anticipation of the Archive series albums that are barely over 2 CDs worth of material – and sales of the 25th anniversary Band on the Run weren't great either.

    What I wish was done, though, is:
    a) Have someone who's job was to map out the entire series at once to see what is involved in each set, narratively, audio-wise and video-wise for better pacing,
    b) Set up a plan of order for the LPs to be reissued and how to support them through other releases, tours, etc., and
    c) Set up a plan for having a few of these smaller sets ready to release should there be a longer period needed between bigger sets — especially if the albums are being remastered for something else.

    Why couldn't the colour vinyl reissues of Paul Is Live and Choba B CCCP not been accompanied by one of them coming as a smaller Archive set akin to the earliest ones in the set?
    Would it have cannibalized sales from Wild Life and Red Rose Speedway (or the upcoming Flaming Pie) that much if a 2 CD / 1 DVD set for Choba B CCCP was released in the middle for under or about $100 retail?

    The majority of his catalogue has remained in print for years, though you have to do some online ordering or seek out digital copies and burn them yourselves.
    That the albums aren't being rushed to reissue may be down to the fact that we were still seeing the Paul McCartney Collection releases from 1993 on shelves a dozen years later.
    I was visiting the UK in 2006 and saw at HMV Soho lots of copies of those discs. And that was after Paul had his 'resurgence' in 2001/2002.

    What surprises me most about the McCartney catalogue is how poorly the entire catalogue is promoted by MPL to boost those sales - especially when the industry began to realize that CDs were not being re-bought on the frequency as LPs.
    Many of his contemporaries have a more frequent release of compilations and/or related materials: hits packages, theme packages, series review series, expanded reissues, and boxed sets of outtakes/live performances.

    When the CDs first started, he came out with the semi-functional All the Best!: LP tracks missing from the CD, and repetition from the also released Wings' Greatest.
    It takes him 13 years to release his next one – and it covers the exact same period, with a few notable absences… and has no follow up.
    8 years later, he puts out a video collection that doesn't identify which album has the songs… and the videos are not offered digitally the same way as the LPs.
    And then it's 8 more years for a catalogue overview that finally goes beyond 1984… but has notable absences as well.

    Given the size of his back catalogue, there should have been much more.
    Why was the re-release program in 1993 not promoted – and not released in the US either?
    When EMI was pushing re-releases for some of its artists in the mid-90s, and with Flaming Pie going to #2 in the UK, why was no effort made to put out a new compilation to help out?
    When Paul has a resurgence in popularity in the early 2000s, and plans for Wings Anthology fall through (along with a hampered Love Songs), why not push for a follow up to Wingspan that covers the solo years with Linda?
    When EMI digitizes Paul's catalogue for iTunes, why not come up with a 2 CD or 3 CD catalogue overview with some additional tracks?

    Honestly, it makes no sense that EMI would not consider ending 1997 with an expanded 10th anniversary of All the Best! that could merge the two versions on CD 1 and add a second disc of material…
    • DISC ONE: Band On The Run / Jet / Ebony And Ivory (with Stevie Wonder) / Listen To What The Man Said / C Moon / Sill Love Songs / Let 'Em In / Maybe I'm Amazed (live) / Live And Let Die / Another Day / My Love / Junior's Farm / Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey (radio edit) / Coming Up (live) / Goodnight Tonight / With a Little Luck (radio edit) / Mull Of Kintyre
    • DISC TWO: Pipes Of Peace / We All Stand Together / Once Upon A Long Ago / Say Say Say (with Michael Jackson) / No More Lonely Nights / Press / Spies Like Us / Hope Of Deliverance / The World Tonight / Pretty Little Head / My Brave Face / C'Mon People / This One / Young Boy / Put It There / Beautiful Night
    And maybe, if there's room, throw in an unreleased track to help encourage fans to buy it.

    Similarly, why not match the release of the animated collection with an album at the end of the year covering those years with the best of Paul's post-Wingspan material through to "Tropic Island Hum" — a set that includes "So Like Candy" (which Elvis had been talking about for years), and the odd b-side (like "Big Boys Bickering")?

    There is no really effective entry point into McCartney's catalogue — and he needs one.
     
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  3. Wingsfan2012

    Wingsfan2012 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Junior's Farm, IL
    It is the big argument of streaming vs downloads vs physical media......I am easily in the camp of the later and do not see that changing any time soon! :righton:
     
  4. Wingsfan2012

    Wingsfan2012 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Junior's Farm, IL
    As imperfect as it is, the Pure McCartney 4 CD or 4 vinyl LP box set is the entry point that I have sent some friends and co-workers.

    Again far from perfect it is still a variety of hits/album tracks and Wings/Solo...………...
     
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  5. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    Which, to be fair, was a great incentive for those in the US with access to Best Buy. I remember asking my American relatives to get me Flaming Pie for the Oobu Joobu disc because there was no Best Buy in Canada at the time.

    Personally, I think the present system is exactly what should be out at the moment…
    1. The single CD for those who want the cheaper album version because they've heard it's good,
    2. The double CD for those who like the album and want a bit more, and
    3. The Archive set for those who are dedicated fans of the album and want everything they can get.
    Especially when iTunes allows you to only pay the difference on moving from #1 to #2 most of the time. Disc 2 – with the exception of McCartney II and Flowers In The Dirt – is really the best of the other outtakes.
     
  6. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    Agreed — but why did it take to Paul's leaving HearMusic to initiate such a set, and why didn't someone tell him that Pure McCartney's overlap may hurt the Archive in the short run but aid them all in the long run?

    Before its release, I put together my own Paul McCartney: The Platinum Collection (a la EMI compilations for David Bowie, Queen and Genesis) for friends and co-workers who were looking for a Paul equivalent to Lennon's Shaved Fish, The John Lennon Collection, Lennon, Legend and Power To The People, or the combined one-two of The Best of George Harrison and The Best of Dark Horse. I still use my top 55 tracks set in the classroom to show Paul wasn't a poor equivalent to Lennon, and that his catalogue is just waaaay more expansive to truly encompass in a single LP with a handful of lesser cuts to fill the space (and I do the same for George and Ringo too).
     
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  7. Wingsfan2012

    Wingsfan2012 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Junior's Farm, IL
    I completely agree- in the CD box set heyday of the 90's the solo Beatles catalogs went largely untouched-the "Lennon" box from 1990 Capitol imported for the US. Otherwise the cupboard was bare...…..

    It was so frustrating seeing so many of the Fabs contemporaries receiving elaborate box sets and none from them...…..
     
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  8. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    But, considering the length of time of the campaign, if they had released a remastered version of say, Red Rose Speedway in 2010 to get it back in print, it's arguable that this would have hindered sales when they released the box set 8 years later; let alone the fact that we could have had remastered versions of London Town, Back To The Egg et al for the last 10 years, to tide us over while waiting for the box set.

    McCartney's manager Scott Rodger has confirmed that that the Archive sets are projects that are tackled one at a time and that there may come a time when they cease due to lack of interest from the record company; so ten years ago it would have made sense; to me anyway, to get the albums reissued even if they were just bare bones 1 CD remasters.

    For an artist as major as McCartney; to me that's still surprising, that you would have to burn your own copy of an album. In the UK at least, the 1993 CDs began to go out pf print from 2010 on.

    The Paul McCartney Collection CDs aren't on shelves in UK stores now (what stores are left!), and are only available online through third party sellers.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  9. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    It is interesting that until Pure McCartney, few compilations ventured much beyond 1984, and Pure McCartney was the first to cover the 21st century output.

    I don't think Pure McCartney would have harmed the Archive Collection in the short run; but it almost certainly further delayed the Archive Collection releases.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  10. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    The Paul McCartney Collection 1993 CD's were the standard CDs on shelves in UK stores from 1993 to 2010, when McCartney moved the back catalogue from EMI to Concord. From 2010 on, the 1993 CD's began to go out of print.
     
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  11. Paul H

    Paul H Senior Member

    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    Well, one wonders how many people might have seen a 2018 RRS deluxe box and ranted about it using an "old" mastering from as far back as 2010.
     
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  12. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    Very true.
     
  13. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    You're thinking of the dedicated fan who will buy the boxed set no matter what.
    For the casual fan who wants a big more of the album, a 2 CD version with all of the best bonus tracks makes the Archive series start to feel like scraping the barrel — how many people would have bought Speed Of Sound or Pipes Of Peace for the video content after knowing that audio material thoroughly for years?

    Well, given that the 2007 editions included some cuts that weren't on physical CD and the tracks disappeared from your purchases when the albums were reduced down to their core by MPL later on, I am glad I did!

    Also…
    From 2010, there were also standard reissues by Concord of albums like Off the Ground which were not designated for the Archive series at that point in time.
    And with Paul emphasizing his earlier catalogue in the live shows which was being Archived, it made sense to keep a digital version out until you could (a) get the Archive edition out in the next few years and/or (b) build up demand.
    Broad Street's Columbia issue went out of print here in Canada in the late 80s, and EMI-Capitol did not bother issuing it until 1991. Wings Over America was rare and not reissued at all. So there are anomalies in the collection.

    At this point, MPL has moved all the bonus tracks to the deluxe version that comes with the Archive, to build up anticipation for whatever else comes with the original LP.
    It's actually a smart marketing move – despite the glacial pace of the Archives due to cost, size and release window needed (a certain time to sell, a major push for buying time, and hopefully no fellow competition with himself).

    To me, again, I'm more disappointed by the lack of support for these LPs and their content to new listeners than the need to release for existing fans a bit more than the original album.
    Honestly, how many new fans – that is, those who got into his music in the last five years – are going to know that Off the Ground is worth buying?
     
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  14. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    Weren't there complaints about the consistency of mixing between discs one and two?
    Some people just like to nitpick.
     
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  15. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    To be fair, The Beatles were one band who's legacy involves the complaint about catalogue manipulation and EMI did not want to ruin their relationship with the band, especially with the triple combination of (a) accusations about mis-reported sales for royalty payments, (b) the decision by The Beatles to block a planned 1989 boxed set of 1962-1966 and 1967-1970, and (c) the return of Apple to control future Beatles releases – which also caused a temporary pause in the CDs as the Apple logo was added.

    Still, it was frustrating to see so many catalogues not only get elaborate boxed sets, but to get reissue series that included new catalogue overviews, additional compilations in the mid-90s to give wider overviews without going into boxed set material, and a push towards the end of the decade to give a strong overview of the key acts on the label.

    Sony's Essential line and both Polygram's Millennium Collection and Gold series made sure that you had entry points into the entire catalogue. Granted, Legend had replaced The John Lennon Collection in print as the entry point two years ago and could have easily been relabelled as a key compilation (in much the same way that Aerosmith's was at PolyGram), but where – in the aftermath of Anthology – was the push to get the others' catalogues recognized?

    I mean: here you had one of the biggest television events of 1995 followed by three double CD sets that were selling well, and leading to higher sales for Flaming Pie and Vertical Man — which, let's face it, were deserved for those LPs! — and yet someone who got into The Beatles at that point for their solo careers had… what? Was The Best of George Harrison or All The Best! even in print? Blast From Your Past was not and it would be years before Photograph came out.

    To my mind, it would have made immense sense to use the success of Anthology and Legend to push for new catalogue overviews because you knew it would sell and help the other albums. We never got one. And, like you said, it was sooooo frustrating, as I was picking up expanded overviews from so many of their contemporaries and then some.
     
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  16. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    I would argue that the deluxe sets / boxes are aimed squarely at the dedicated fan, who will buy them no matter what. For the casual fan, the 2 CD versions in the Archive collection so far make much more sense, and of course offer far better value for money.

    Off The Ground, Run Devil Run and Driving Rain were all reissued on the Hear Music label, but that was just to keep them in print on the new label; though it's interesting to note the absence of Flaming Pie. To me, that move always signalled that Flaming Pie was going to get the Archive Collection treatment; but perhaps signals the other two are not. Time will tell...

    That's why I believe there should be physical copies of all the albums available now.

    You could argue that, for new fans from the last 5 years, they can just check out the albums on Youtube or Spotify, but there will always be a demand from some for physical copies.

    For Off The Ground, that CD is still in print and cheap as chips, so new fans who like physical media have no excuse not to check it out!
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
  17. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    As someone who got into The Beatles and subsequently the solo catalogues from around the time of Anthology, I completely agree. The prime time for reissues would have been 1997-1998 post Anthology.

    I still remember the frustration at not being able to buy or listen to any of George Harrison's Dark Horse catalogue, which was out of print when I started searching for CDs in stores from 1995 on. Walk into a UK HMV in the late 90's and you would see the 1987 All Things Must Pass CD and the 'Best of George Harrison' compilation. If you were lucky and it was a larger store, they may have the other Apple albums. For that reason, it took me a while to track down Living In The Material World, Dark Horse and Extra Texture. It wasn't until the 2004 reissues that I heard any of the Dark Horse label albums.

    Similarly, Lennon's Milk And Honey was out of print on CD in the mid 90's until the 2001 reissue. When Legend was released in 1997, the inclusion of Nobody Told Me and Borrowed Time was almost like finding gold; especially since it was another four years before until the reissue of Milk and Honey.
     
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  18. Oyster Boy

    Oyster Boy Forum Resident

    Hard to believe ex-Beatles albums were / are out of print during any period really, and the physical sales they must have lost doesn’t bare thinking about.
     
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  19. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    To quote a poster here on these forums from a while back, Flaming Pie was done – but some of the other albums hadn't been started. Initially, they were look at about 10 releases – which are his biggest LPs:
    1. McCartney, the album that broke up The Beatles
    2. Ram, the album that showed he could still do it by offering his first two #1 singles
    3. Band On The Run, considered to be his strongest solo offering
    4. Venus And Mars, the follow up that launched Wings' greatest tour
    5. Speed Of Sound, which was deemed one of the best albums of the decade by Rolling Stone
    6. Wings Over America, the document of his reaching the peak with Wings
    7. McCartney II, the successor to McCartney and with John's favourite of Paul's solo work
    8. Tug Of War, his strongest album of the early 80s with his tribute to John
    9. Flowers In The Dirt, which led to his triumphant return to the world stage
    10. Flaming Pie, the album which got to #2, was Linda's last, and was up for a Grammy
    Pipes Of Peace always seemed a logical fit with Tug Of War. The rest were compiled later – which would explain why the next album was stated explicitly with Flowers in the Dirt, as management was still urging Paul to fill in the gaps first and there was no decision on that. Once Flaming Pie, London Town and Back to the Egg are done, the attention will likely turn to the question of what next and it's likely we'll see work on Broad Street, Press to Play, Tripping the Live Fantastic and Off the Ground on different levels.
     
  20. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    It will be interesting to see what happens once London Town and Back To The Egg are reissued; whether the remaining albums are given deluxe reissues or not.

    Broadstreet, Press To Play and Off The Ground I suspect will, but I can't see Tripping The Live Fantastic receiving the archive treatment. More likely a bare bones remaster, a'la Paul Is Live.
     
  21. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    Not really. Consider the critical reaction and status within the catalogue of those albums.
    It wasn't as if many people were clamouring for a reissue of Mind Games or Milk & Honey, Dark Horse and Extra Texture, or Ringo's Rotogravure and Stop And Smell The Roses.

    Plus, there's this:
    Most of those HMVs were smaller shops, just as they were here in Canada. Space was limited.
    It wasn't abnormal to have the latest greatest hits, one or two of the bigger albums, and then a handful of the latest album.
    And don't get me started on singles!

    I remember going into HMV here in our busiest shopping mall and finding their McCartney section consisted of All the Best!, Band on the Run and maybe Ram along with Driving Rain.

    To get the deeper catalogue titles in those days, you needed to special order them or go to a larger store in a bigger city.
    That's just how it was. And the ex-Beatles weren't the only ones like that either – if you had older catalogue titles, they generally didn't sell enough to cover the cost of the floor space in the way that bigger titles would.

    Today, of course, you have digital services and online order platforms; I can order any McCartney LP via Amazon including the Archives, which would have been unheard of in the past.
    If an Archive wasn't carried, I pre-ordered it, went to a specialty shop in a lower rent area that carried more, or waited until I went to a bigger city to buy it.
     
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  22. supermd

    supermd Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    At least it would have been mastered by the "good" mastering team who helmed the first few releases. :hide:
     
  23. Brian from Canada

    Brian from Canada Forum Resident

    Location:
    Great White North
    I can see Tripping the Live Fantastic very easily:
    1. CD 1
    2. CD 2
    3. CD 3: "All My Trials," b-sides from the singles, some rehearsals & soundchecks
    4. CD 4 (potentially download content): select clips from the press conferences
    5. DVD of tour footage
    6. Small book about the tour as being the return to the stage, the recordings on these CDs, and the filming of Get Back
    7. Book of tour photos from the original booklets with additional unreleased photos
    8. Book about the tour that has itineraries, set list notes, etc.
    9. Reprint of the tour book
    Easy to compile, which gives them more time for the larger sets around it.
     
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  24. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    There's no question the material is there to make a large set, but if they have elected not to do it for Paul Is Live, where they could have included the concert film and doubtless other materials in the MPL archive, why do it for Tripping the Live Fantastic.

    Plus, Tripping doesn't have the same standing as Wings Over America; to have a deluxe set on that level.

    Of course, I may be completely wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if Tripping is passed over.
     
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  25. jl151080

    jl151080 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    Has the mastering team changed?
     

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