Paul Simon: Plagiarist?

Well, the Los Lobos story was news to me (I was never a fan of Graceland, so it must have gone over my radar), as was the suggestion that Cloudy and Red Rubber Ball were co-writes with Bruce Woodley.

I was aware, though, of Simon's hijacking of Scarboroug Fair - an ancient English folksong - which Simon became acquainted with via folk singer Martin Carthy when PS was based in the UK during 1964-66. Carthy released his own version as a single in 1966 and was somewhat surprised (to put it midlly) when the same song turned up as the lead-off track to S&G's second album, released in the autumn of that year.

When Carthy went public with his story, Simon apparently offered to pay off his (Carthy's) mortgage, just to shut him up.

It's stories like this that are changing my perception of Paul Simon: I used to think he was a great singer-songwriter and a pretty OK sort of bloke, from what I knew.

Anyone know anything else?

 

I have known more than one person who has dealt directly with Simon over the years, and they all have very negative things to say.

I don't think the man should take away from the art, and even if he's stolen a few songs (quite a petty thing to do, if you ask me), I don't think ANYONE would accuse him of purloining the vast bulk of the songs attributed to him.

 

Past thread: Steve Berlin of Los Lobos remembers working with Paul Simon...and it was NOT good.
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=145181

Past thread: Los Lobos hates Paul Simon over Graceland sessions
http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=185826

The link I posted in #309 of the first thread above, and #1 of the second thread above, is now gone, but Wikipedia's entry on "Graceland" still has the quote of Paul Simon responding to Steve Berlin's (Los Lobos) story:

 

No, I wouldn't dispute that the vast bulk of his catalogue is his own, no questions asked.

I get the impression he has a problem dealing with people as equals - that he can't actually acknowledge anyone else's contribution to the final product. Thi would be of a piece with his wanting to get rid of Art Garfunkel mainly because he couldn't stand the perception that some people had that all of their song were co-writes.

 

In fairness it must be said that Scarborough Fair (the English folk song) doesn't nearly carry the impact that Paul Simon's adaptation of it -- combining it with his anti-war "Canticle" -- does.

The effect, especially in the day, had strong emotional impact. It pulls at my emotions even today as an existential lament over never-ending, pointless death and war.

Dale

 

it was said that Dylan also stole a few tunes during his travels...

 

Paying off Carthy's mortgage seems like a reasonable attempt to rectify the situation. Simon is not the only major artist with a big ego that has trouble acknowledging the contributions of others. His place in music history is established.....he should lighten up and be more gracious to others.

 

I've known about Zep's thieving for a long time, though I believe they have settled their account with some of the people they ripped off (Jake Holmes being a notable exception). Jimmy Page's magpie antics are well known, though it doesn't really lessen my appreciation of their music - and my favourite tracks by them are their less blues-derived compositions.

But Simon's behaviour was new to me - I was aware of the Carthy story, but not of the Heidi Berg/Los Lobos ones. It doesn't really lessen my appreciaton of him as a writer/performer (and I don't care too much for Graceland, anyway), but I didn't know he was such a heel.

Ry Cooder tells some interesting stories about Jagger/Richard, I believe....

 

The man gave himself writing credit for "Silent Night." What more do you need to know?

 

It's one thing for him to not give credit where credit's due - that in itself is pretty slimy. But the thing that really gets me is in the telling of the Los Lobos episode: it shows a guy who has no idea what he's doing, has no ideas of his own and is waiting for someone else to take the lead. This to me is the real indicator of a big problem with Paul Simon as an artist and the lack of proper credit seems like a cover-up for a con-man/charlatan. Just my opinion based on the Los Lobos account. The other accusations of stealing credit are certainly not encouraging either.

 

I don't get these accusations.. plagiarist of what? songs that never went anywhere?

I mean even if one accepts he borrowed - and who hasn't? heck the same accusations could be made of dylan- what he borrowed he fashioned into a greater song that reached a wider audience...

Paul Simon is a genius and one of the great American songwriters.. he has his influences like everyone and in some cases has borrowed liberally..

 

I bumped into Ry at my local gym a few years ago. When he walked passed me, I asked him if he really wrote "Honky Tonk Women" and he said that yes he came up with the riff, but that Jagger/Richards took it a lot further. Ry said that it was basically a John Lee Hooker lick. A few years back I was listening to "Jamming With Edward" and was surprised to hear the prototype for "Midnight Rambler" in one of the jams with Ry, Nicky Hopkins, Watts and Wyman. I believe in a Rolling Stone Magazine interview, Ry mentions that he was on the phone, asking when he should come by the studio, and he heard Keith Richards attempting to re-record his riffs. The slide work on the song "Let It Bleed" sounds a lot like Ry, but you can hear Keith make a few sloppy mistakes on it. I wonder if Ry was ever asked to join the band before Mick Taylor?

 

I don't understand where the accusation of ripping off Martin Carthy comes from, when Carthy didn't write "Scarborough Fair." It's a traditional song enlived by S&G's inspired merging with "Canticle."

Here's Carthy's version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHHrHlRxbqY

 

Everybody's got something to hide 'cept me and Paul Simon.

 

The guitar arrangement was reportedly taken from Carthy.

BTW "Silent Night" is currently public domain, according to Wiki.

 

Off-topic, but:

Re, S&G's Silent Night

Worst. Protest Song. Ever.:thumbsdn:

 

A picture of Paul Simon is beginning to emerge....that of a very savvy, very hard-nosed and (admittedly) very talented man who knows the music BUSINESS inside out and knows exactly how to shaft people without their having any comeback. He makes no bones about trading on his prestige and reputation in order to entice people into collaborating with him and usually thinks they should be honoured that he invites them. He has to be in control and cannot look on anyone as an equal.

All told, not a pretty picture.

 

I'm ok with him, as long as I don't have to do any business with him

 

Songs that never went anywhere? Okay, Red Rubber Ball may not have been a #1 hit, but the fact that we're still talking about it 44 years later says something. And the songs that Los Lobos claims they cowrote were on a #1 selling album!!!

I'm not sure that the term 'borrowing' applies here if the ones making the accusations were actually sitting in the room with him while the songs were created (and doesn't sound as though he denies it). That's quite a bit different than borrowing a guitar riff or lifting a lyric from an old song.

 

Dylan has stolen more songs than Simon ever thought about stealing - including Scarborough Fair - though he wrote new lyrics for them (until recently, when he started purloining lines from poetry he was reading).

Jagger & Richards stole from Wyman (Jumpin' Jack Flash was his riff, and another song I can't remember), Wood, Cooder, Mick Taylor, Gram Parsons. And of course there's Sister Morphine but they at least corrected the credits for that.

Are the Beatles the only ones that didn't steal songs?

 

There is some controversy over the authorship of Blowin' In The Wind, but I think most of Dylan's 'steals' were in the publci domain, anyway. Though I hear there was some talk of plagiarism over some of the songs on Modern Times.

Dylan supposedly slowed the melody of Norwegian Wood down to create Fourth Time Around, which some have interpreted as a dig at Lennon for copying some of his themes ('I never asked for your crutch/now don't ask for mine'). I don't actually believe this story, but it's fun.

Lennon then half-inched Dylans' guitar melody from Masters Of War for Workign Class Hero. Or so the story goes.

 

If someone claims to have written a song that they didn't write, it's dishonest whether or not the song is in the publc domain.