PayPal will no longer refund their 2.9% fees when you refund a buyer

Discussion in 'Marketplace Discussions' started by kwadguy, Apr 3, 2019.

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  1. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    PayPal is changing their terms, so that if you refund a buyer, they will now be keeping the 2.9% fee they charged on the original amount, in addition to the $0.30 transaction fee that they never refunded.

    Suddenly, PayPal refunds have become onerous...Hopefully, the new eBay payment system will be better...

    They are also increasing the spread between the actual exchange rate and the rate they charge to 3.25% for PayPal transactions that involve currency exchange.

    PayPal
     
    tmtomh and Reese like this.
  2. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    It's pretty bad. But I am not surprised really. eBay had every year or so upped their fees, changed the terms, up'd fees again and again and changed terms again every year until their business and stock sunk like a rock. And then went with free listings when they simply had no choice due to competition. I think fees are pretty much done going up on ebay because there is no room for seller's profit to do so.

    SO... I would expect PayPal is in the same boat, they can't really hit sellers up for higher fees, yet they want to increase profits, so nickle and dime-ing the sellers everywhere they can would seem to be in line with everything about them and ebay. I know they were sold off from the ebay parent company, but the lust for higher profits remains. They will continue to squeeze, and cut at their sellers from both ends.

    I'm glad I got most of my major music sell-off out of the way some years ago, before such high fees, and horrible rules, and tax ID and SS#s issues were enforced on even low volume sellers. And I got the nicer prices on my CDs, just before the bottom fell out of that market. I did great while it lasted.

    Thanks for the update, I did not know about it. Amazon with their high fees still looks to me like a more attractive venue if you have the right goods, and can hold out for your desired price. I'm getting very nice prices for items, but I move only two or three items a month. As I've said before, it's a classier shopping mall in general, but not for everything obviously. Used CDs are now an eBay thing afaik, right?
     
    Matthew Tate and TheSaltman like this.
  3. Dave S

    Dave S Forum Resident

    Maybe sellers need to up their game so that they don't have returns. Paypal is also used by regular businesses using their own websites, not just ebay.
     
    zphage likes this.
  4. Dave S

    Dave S Forum Resident

    Amazon has gotten really expensive for private sellers. I sold a lot of books through Amazon, but I probably wouldn't do so today. I buy a lot of CDs from charity shops. If you are willing to look beyond your usual listening habits, then you can find some real bargains. I had some good deals on ebay and Amazon too.
     
  5. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I sinply price my items higher at Amazon and wait it out. I bought a boxed software item at ebay for $155. It was the last one from a seller selling a dozen of so. I flipped it for $350 at Amazon. It was not even the latest version, but I'd kept it sealed when I realized it was getting this at retail.

    I find LPs at thrift store, and sometimes I get $25 to $30 an item at Amazon. No haggling, never had a customer ask to return anything. I've done really well with online sales in general. I've likely paid for my entire collection just by flipping extras and investment pieces. I do it for the fun, not just for profit.
     
    Tedw9 likes this.
  6. Projectman

    Projectman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    I refunded a guy $3300.00 this morning on PayPal and the fee was refunded
     
    tmtomh likes this.
  7. Projectman

    Projectman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    Here is the new policy regarding refunds

    “We’re changing how we treat refunds. If you refund (partially or fully) a transaction to a buyer or a donation to a donor, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid as the seller will not be returned to you.”
     
    cwitt1980, tmtomh and AaronW like this.
  8. Bobsblkwax

    Bobsblkwax Forum Resident

    Location:
    NorCal
    So why did they refund you the fee then? Am I missing something?
     
  9. ClassicalCD

    ClassicalCD Make audio great again

    Location:
    Bogotá, Colombia
    This is incredibly abusive.
     
    Matthew Tate likes this.
  10. One of eBay's requirements for their Top-Rated Plus 10% seller discount is that the seller accept returns unconditionally- with free return shipping- for 30 days or longer following receipt of the item. The buyer doesn't need to provide a reason.

    Buyers can always demand a refund by bringing an "Item Not As Described" case- or threatening to bring one- against any seller, of course. The mere hint of a threat is often sufficient; buyer disputes are incredibly tedious for sellers, and require constant attention until they're resolved. It takes more energy and stress for me to deal with ONE buyer return than it does for me to list, pack, and ship 10 items, even when the buyer is paying return shipping. I'm not Amazon. I don't have a returns office and a warehouse. So believe me, my "game" already has ample encouragement to stay "upped."

    A little history: I lost one buyer dispute case because I didn't check my "messages from eBay" box; I was so used to those messages only being about superfluous announcements of sales, etc. that I didn't realize that it was the box where eBay was sending their communications on the buyer dispute. Ebay closed the case in the buyer's favor, because 7 days (iirc) had elapsed without a response from me. I had been waiting patiently for a response from the other side of the case- and I was sure that any message on a dispute would be sent either from the buyer directly, or from eBay dispute resolution to my High Priority inbox!

    Silly me, I didn't realize that the High Priority reference is reserved exclusively for matters that are of high priority to eBay as well as to myself (i.e., past due bill payment notices.)

    I lost two other cases because International buyers reported that their package had been lost in transit; the fact that I had supplied all of the required paperwork was immaterial. In one case, the buyer contacted me and told me that their box had gone to the proper address, but since the buyer had a medical emergency and found themselves in the hospital, the German post office was in the process of shipping the package back as a delivery failure (it needed a signature for delivery.) I still had not received the returned package and therefore could not re-mail it in time to resolve the problem by eBay's arbitrary deadline. So eBay summarily refunded the buyer and marked it against me as a seller.

    In the other case, it turns out that the item probably ran afoul of Argentine customs; I knew that the regulations vary from country to country in ways that can be awfully capricious, but I hadn't anticipated that a list of prohibited items might include sunglasses.

    All three of those cases contributed heavily to an algorithm score that put me 1/5 of a point into Bad Seller territory, with the result that I was suspended from eBay for years (I have at least one more eyeroll of a buyer dispute story, but I'll spare readers the details.) No warning; no advance notice; no appeal. I had thought that I was permanently banned as a seller, but I was granted clemency last spring. So I'm back selling.

    This being the Internet, maybe someone will start into a lecture on how this was all entirely my fault...
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
    Archguy likes this.
  11. Projectman

    Projectman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    I didn’t refund the fee, PayPal did. I refunded the buyer’s money because their address wasn’t PayPal verified.
     
    tmtomh likes this.
  12. EddieMann

    EddieMann I used to be a king...

    Location:
    Geneva, IL. USA.
    Stub Hub has increased their seller’s fee as well to 15%. Add that to the 10% the buyer pays. So if I sell a ticket for instance for $100, the buyer pays $110, of which I see $85. It makes breaking even on a ticket sale pretty near impossible.
     
  13. Gumboo

    Gumboo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Metry, Louisiana
    Changes will go into effect on May 7, 2019
    Policy Updates
     
    Bobsblkwax likes this.
  14. Gill-man

    Gill-man Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Good point. Returns should be far and few between.
     
    Dave likes this.
  15. Has PayPal stopped this, meaning the 2.9% or 3.9% fee is being refunded again? My last refund on eBay in May, 2020 didn't result in having to lose the fee. I took a few minutes to look at recent PayPal transactions, primarily because I have been pissed that PayPal charges me 2.9% on sales tax eBay collects, that hasn't stopped unfortunately. With states now requiring eBay collect sales tax, the PayPal fees on a $10 sale are about 6.1% to 6.3% depending on the state. It would have been reasonable if states requiring eBay collect sales tax would have also have required PayPal not charge the seller a fee on the sales tax. I don't even receive the sales tax, eBay collects it, all I see is the fee on the sales tax deducted from the sales price. Oh well, that is a different complaint for a different thread.

    The refund was required because the USPS took too long to deliver a package through Chicago.
    The refund details from PayPal:

    Funded with
    Balance
    Transaction ID
    65J21157F2081635A
    Refund details
    Total refunded to ************
    $17.00
    Fee reversal
    -negative $0.49
    Tax collected by eBay
    -negative $1.00
    Total paid by you
    $15.51
     
  16. Rigoberto

    Rigoberto Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA (UT)
    How can eBay charge sales tax when eBay is not the seller? This seems illegal.
     
    Matthew Tate likes this.
  17. Bobsblkwax

    Bobsblkwax Forum Resident

    Location:
    NorCal
    They collect it for the state in which you reside. It's the state making Ebay comply.
     
  18. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Thank Congress.

    They passed a law that upended decades of precedent and said that even if you don't have a nexus in a state, you are responsible for collecting taxes for that state if you sell to people in that state.

    eBay collects the taxes on behalf of the seller/state.
     
    Matthew Tate likes this.
  19. Dillydipper

    Dillydipper Space-Age luddite

    Location:
    Central PA
    Wait...Congress "passed a law that upended decades of precedent"...?!

    Shocked, I tell you...

    What's that date again? November 3rd...? :whistle:
    I don't care anymore if I have to vote wearing a giant baggie to avoid the blowhard behind me coughing his lungs off at anybody in his vicinity...
     
  20. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I seem to not be getting dinged on refunds by PP. It's usually a buyer who accidentally paid twice (happened 2 times on Discogs), and I quickly refunded the extra payment. Maybe they know it's often not the seller's fault.
     
  21. SJP

    SJP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Anaheim
    It is my understanding that there is a PayPal transaction fee, a flat amount in the $0.35 range that no longer gets refunded.
     
  22. Classic Car Guy

    Classic Car Guy - Touch the Face of God -

    Location:
    Northwest, USA
    [​IMG]
     
  23. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    Double check your before and after balance, Paypal makes it look like they have refunded everything on their interface.

    That said if you do get something huge refunded, you can call Paypal and they will do a one time courtesy reversal on the fees if you have an account with them for a long time with no complaints on it.
     
    Myke likes this.
  24. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I've had two discogs sales where the payment came in twice. It looks like the buyer was not sure it went through and clicked on pay twice. So I refunded right away both times. And I thought it cost me nothing. If it turns out I was dinged both times because of the buyer's confusion, then we have a problem that needs to be rectified right away. I am going to need to pass on the fee to the buyer who hit pay twice. Or block paypal payments (from buyers) until I send invoice from paypal, which can only be paid once. There has to be a way for sellers to not just get dinged ever time a buyer screws up.

    I was told that the Discogs system is a bit clunky, and this is one of those times I am seeing it first hand. It's unacceptable. But if I have to PayPal invoice each buyer for each transaction that that's the way it is. I am already forced to mark each order paid manually after they order and pay. So I may as well take charge of the entire process - blocking Discogs from doing it automatically.
     
  25. As far as I know, the $0.30 to $0.40 fee has never been refunded, I have been issuing refunds through PayPal for a long time, over a decade. I can't find any PayPal refunds where I have had to eat the 2.9% or 3.9% fee. It looks like I am going to be stuck with issuing a refund for another USPS late or non-delivery of an eBay sale. This will be a $50 hit this time if it happens.

    Tracking details
    USPS tracking #9449008205496551033609
    • Aug 5, 2020
    • 12:00am
    • In Transit, Arriving Late
    • Aug 1, 2020
    • 1:28am
    • Arrived at USPS Regional Origin Facility
    • LITTLE ROCK AR DISTRIBUTION CENTER ANNEX
    • Aug 1, 2020
    • 12:13am
    • Accepted at USPS Origin Facility
    • LITTLE ROCK, AR 72212
    • Jul 31, 2020
    • 7:31am
    • Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item
    • LITTLE ROCK, AR 72212
    • Jul 31, 2020
    • 5:32am
    • Tracking number provided
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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