Phono noise

No, I didn't say that. It DOES NOT get louder as the cartridge approaches the spindle. It's entirely random and it occurs EVEN WHEN THE TT IS TURNED OFF, so I don't imagine it could possibly be the turntable motor or an interaction between the cartridge and the TT motor.

 

Is it identical on both channels or is it only one?

 

Never mind.

 

Can't say that it's identical in both channels but it's certainly occurring in both channels.

Weirdly, it seems to go away when a record is playing--something I hadn't noticed before. It seems to happen when the phono mode is chosen on the amplifier but when a record is NOT playing, even if the TT is turned off. In other words, with the TT off, just switching the amplifier to phono causes the sound and when the TT is on, it happens only in "idle," before you start a record playing, or, at the end of a disc, after the tone arm lifts and returns to its rest position. It continues if you turn off the TT--and turning it on again doesn't seem to change things. Again, I stress that this isn't a hum from the cartridge that increases as the cartridge approaches the spindle where the TT motor is. It's completely quiet in the lead-off section of the LP at the end--when the cartridge is closest to the spindle and motor. It starts as soon as the tone arm lifts and it continues in both channels. Having the attached CD player on or off doesn't seem to make a difference either. In one sense it can be ignored, as it doesn't interfere with the music, but it's annoying and mysterious....

 

It sounds to me like bleed-through of the tuner section getting into the phono stage inside the receiver. That's likely not fixable. If it's low enough not to hear, then I'd say that ignoring it is the solution. An external phono stage might sound better and eliminate it entirely. That might still be annoying, but it will at least be less mysterious. If it's from an external source, and these things can be, then even an external phono preamp may not exorcise its demons. Trying one will certainly give you a yes or no on that.
-Bill

 

It sounds like a pest of a problem to pin point but I am wondering whether the cables in the tonearm are reaching breaking point and when you lower it makes better contact thus the problem goes away but when you lift the arm the cable gets stretched and displays the issue. I second the motion of trying an external phono stage. It is probably one of those things when you need to play trial and error changing stuff until you discover the cause. If it is the amp, I don't think is worth trying to fix it. Adding an external phono stage is going to be the simplest solution.

 

Isn't the Outlaw a receiver? If so - there is a radio tuner there. Is your phono on top, or anywhere close to the Outlaw, like on the same shelf? If so - move it as far away from the Outlaw as you can. Besides, your cart being a Grado - it may be the infamous "Grado hum". Have you tried another cart to see if the hum is still there?

Edit: Oh, I see you're using the internal phono of the Outlaw. Then I second the advise of getting an outboard phono, a good shielded cable, and place the phono as far away from the Outlaw's tuner as you can.

 

Since last writing, I’ve made a number of changes trying to eliminate the problem. None has worked. For years, using the old amplifier, old cartridge on the TT, old speakers etc., I have always had the small direct drive turntable sitting on top of the CD player with the CD player sitting on top of the amplifier. I know that’s not ideal, but I never had a hum problem before either.

So, yesterday, quite laboriously, I took apart, the entire system, including the TV and related TV gear and removed everything that was not being used — and there were quite a number of cables just sitting back there etc. Again far from ideal, but I never had a hum problem before either....

The CD player is now on its own shelf about 3 feet above the turntable. Amplifier is on the shelf at the same level but one space to the side so it’s about 4 feet away from the turntable now. I replaced the long, crappy RCA cables the turntable was connected with with a pair of Wire World Solstice 8 cables that my local audio store recommended as being good for a turntable.

Because, until now, the turntable support has been the amplifier and CD player, I had to put the turntable on something different. Doing a little reading, I created my own support structure in a way that I hope isolates the turntable. It now sits on the stack of alternating ceramic tiles and cork tiles Interspersed at equal intervals with layers of mat board and, near the top of the stack, thin rubber mats.

I say, all of these changes have made no difference whatsoever. Someone has suggested to me that the cartridge itself could be acting as a microphone, picking up radio interference. Is that consistent with the phenomenon I’ve described of the hum disappearing when the stylus is in contact with the record platter?

My next plan is to simply change out the Grado cartridge with the Audio Technica cartridge that preceded it and see if that fixes the problem. If it does, that will be kind of a shame, because I really like the sound of the Grado cartridge.

 

OK, so you moved things which has probably eliminated proximity interference between components. That's a good start and every component deserves its own shelf anyway. That generally results in best possible sound and it makes things way easier to swap at a later date.

The thing that you should do now is to completely unplug the turntable interconnects from your receiver at the back of the receiver, so that the receiver has nothing plugged into its phono input, not even the cables. Now do the switch from aux to phono and see if the noise is gone. If you still hear it, it's likely the tuner in the receiver bleeding through. If you don't hear it, then it is likely the turntable. At least it would eliminate the amp.

One odd thing that you mention, yet no one here can really verify independently, is that you say the noise is only present when the arm is lifted from the record surface. Some turntables will break the audio output connection, or short it to ground when the tonearm is raised. If that is really going on, then that could be due to the turntable changing the ground connection to the phono preamp and somehow picking up a bit of AM radio interference. So if you can eliminate the amp, and you can then hear the noise only with the arm lifted, a cartridge swap may not help. That, unfortunately is really hard to know without trying it as radio interference can be influenced by vary subtle resistance changes in wiring. It could be just that the turntable, when it breaks the signal (if that is even happening), is breaking connection to ground, which would leave the phono input unshielded. So a new cartridge swap may not help there and you'd only then have two alternatives. A different turntable or a higher tolerance for such low level noise.
-Bill

 

Grados, by design, are totally unshielded. You have to live with that or change for a shielded design. Keep in mind there's a little copper coil in there that is basically a small antenna - so it is rather exposed.

It sounds like you're picking up cell phone or similar interference. Possibly Wi-Fi. Anything like that in the room?

The Grado I have picks up motor hum like no other as soon as it passes over the motor in my Technics table. Absolutely nothing to be done, just live with it or move on.

 

Well, as I've said elsewhere in this thread, it's not a hum while the record plays that gets louder as the tone arm approaches the center spindle. It's steady, although with random variations, and it happens when the tone arm ISN'T on the record.

However, there IS a wi-fi router in the room--although it's all the way on the other side of the room, probably 15 feet away....

 

I understand, I was just relaying my experience. It's a Grado Fact Of Life®.

I'm not likely to blame the WiFi router at that distance.
Try putting your phone next to the cart (when the system is powered up and set to PHONO) and see if it makes the same noise.

I would definitely agree with the suggestions to try a standalone phono stage.
Also make sure you use a shielded cable from TT to Pre.

 

Excuse my ignorance, but, then that means I can run the TT through one of the AUX inputs on the amplifier? I was assuming that a TT had to go through the phono input because of the grounding, but I can just leave it grounded as it is, with the cables switched to AUX? But maybe that's not what you mean when you say "do the switch from aux to phono and see if the noise is gone." Maybe you mean just switch the chosen input on the amp? Could you clarify? Thanks

 

I just replaced the TT cables with the Wire World Solstice 8 cables mentioned in an earlier post. I assume these are appropriately shielded? They didn't make a difference.

 

The Wi-Fi router, is, of course, wireless with a range far greater than 15 feet....

 

Yes, disconnect the Left and Right turntable leads from the phono input of the amp. Then switch the inputs on the amp as you have before and listen, only this time there will be no turntable connected. That is to isolate the amp to itself and it's radio.
-Bill

 

Forgot about that. Just looked at the product and it appears to have a foil shield which should be suitable.

At this point I would try the AT cart - just connect it and mount it, don't fuss with adjusting it and playing it. See if the issue goes away.

 

Yes, I will try that. As it's a P-mount cartridge, there's not much of an adjustment to make. Will try that after work today and report back. Thanks

 

Audible noise in most PHONO stages with no signal present and the gain set high is typical (it is normal) and does not indicate a defect - however, how "loud" it is will vary from model to model and depends on a number of things as well as sensitivity

Random impulse and transient noise coming out of your speakers, even when the turntable is OFF indicates an issue with your amplification

A staticky far away sounding noise ranging from steady state "woooooooosh" to light static and shwooshing (like teeny tiny people frying bacon), when the gain is CRANKED and no record is playing is normal and the DEGREE will vary from phono stage to phono stage depending on design and quality as mentioned above

I'm not 100% clear on what you are using for amplification (and when I say that, for the sake of THIS conversation we will be referring to it all, amp and PHONO) as you have no equipment listing in your profile and I can't follow all your posts

All of this being said - this is a very simple diagnosis
Unplug your turntable leads, set your amplification to PHONO and crank up the volume
If the noise is still there then you know it's originating from your amp/phono stage
If NOT, then you now it's in your cartridge

[Moderator Edit]

Hope this helps
Michael

 

Sorry, I'm new to the forum and I got here because I've upgraded my sound system in the past couple of months for the first time in about 25 years. I didn't realize that you could list equipment in a profile or even that I HAVE a profile.

For the purposes of this conversation, anyway, the turntable is an old Technics direct-drive model, the SL-J2, which had the original cartridge from about 1990 on it and a cheap, generic replacement stylus. I upgraded the cartridge to a Grado Green. I was using an old Technics amplifier/receiver of the same vintage, running a pair of equally old Yamaha NS-10s. The Technics amplifier was on its last legs. I replaced it with an Outlaw Audio RR2160 amplifier/receiver and replaced the Yamaha speakers with a pair of KEF LS50s. On the whole, I'm loving the change. It all sounds great. It's just that the hum is annoying.

I will try the diagnostic method you recommend after work today and report back.

However, I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean by "shorting my inputs" or what "shorting plugs" are. Apologizing in advance for my ignorance, could you explain?

Thanks

 

Don't worry (forget) about shorting plugs for now - that was just a little extra side bar commentary

Just follow this extremely simple procedure and your diagnostic is done:

"All of this being said - this is a very simple diagnosis
Unplug your turntable leads, set your amplification to PHONO and crank up the volume
If the noise is still there then you know it's originating from your amp/phono stage
If NOT, then you now it's in your cartridge"

 

This is a very simple diagnosis
Unplug your turntable leads from your receiver, set your receiver selector to PHONO and crank up the volume
If the noise is still there then you know it's originating from your receiver or it's phono stage

If the noise is NOT there, then you know it's in your cartridge and or turntable

This post not to be redundant but for the sake of efficacy, clarity and safety
Let us know what you determine it to be!
Michael

 

Yes, linear tracking, direct drive. It's the same in all cases. No buzz while the record plays, but it's there while idle, before playing, and starts again immediately after the tone arm automatically lifts at the end of a disc, or if, during play, you hit the cueing button and "manually" lift the tone arm off the record. The turntable is grounded to the phono ground post on the back of the amplifier.

 

Did you say you have an old AT cartridge you can try? Do that! If the noise is gone, you've solved your mystery. If the noise is still present, to find the source you'll have to systematically experiment with changes along the chain between the cartridge and the receiver. Before anything else, do what @Michael Chavez said a few posts up to rule out a problem with the Outlaw.