Phono Pre-amp: Lounge Audio LCR MK3, Musical Surroundings Phenomena II, or Rothwell Rialto/Simplex

Hey all. I'm looking for a step up from my Schiit Mani and have narrowed my selection down to the Lounge Audio LCR MK3, Musical Surroundings Phenomena II (used, of course), or the Rothwell Rialto/Simplex.

Having an MC option is nice, but not a requirement. Trying to keep the price for new/used unit south of $500 USD.

Thoughts/recommendations are welcome.

 

I have a Phonomena II+ in a second system and it is very good, though mine does have a few mods. I usually recommend the Rothwell Rialto in the under $500 threads, $410 delivered to the US from their store, can't really beat it, all discrete and no opamps, no frills either, that's where the Phonomena has the advantage with it's many adjustments (no frills on the Lounge either). In any case, if those are the options and $500 is the limit, I'd pick the Rialto for new, and Phonomena II+ for used. I much prefer the low feedback discrete options. Quite a few other options out there in the used market, but you need a good feel for what you want.

BTW, you may have seen it, but there's an original Nova Phonomena on USAM for $375, been listed for a week or so, says battery replaced a couple years ago, that's a circa 2008 design, not sure when the next version came out, but may be able to get it for a nice price. Battery may be a hassle, though. What kind of cartridges are you using, and planning for? There was a nice review of this one partnered with the Benz Micro ACE SL cartridge we were discussing just recently in another thread, around $500 from some sources, that would make a very synergistic and nice sounding combo ... https://www.dagogo.com/musical-surroundings-nova-phonomena-phono-preamplifier-review/

 

The Phonomena II can be found used for less than $500. I'm most concerned about improved depth and imaging, which is where my current stage comes up a bit short.

With that said, would you still lean toward the Rothwell?

I'm running an Ortofon MC-3 Turbo (HOMC). I doubt I'll have a need for a stage that supports LOMC.

 

Between the Rothwell and the Phenomena II, does one attend out from the other?

 

I don't know, I haven't done a direct comparison, and don't own the Rothwell, I have heard it on a couple occasions as a friend of a friend has one. And as mentioned above, I have modified my Phonomena quite a bit so it wouldn't be an accurate comparison anyway, the Phonomena seems a good overall design but still responds well to replacing the tiny digital power supply and some of the internal parts.

The Rothwell uses a 24VDC wall wart too, but I think has better internal power filtering, hard to say for sure, like Sutherland, he does make claim that because of the multiple stages of internal filtering, external power upgrades shouldn't be needed. The Rothwell uses what has become a more standard topology with passive RIAA filter between gain stages, and no loop feedback or active EQ, whereas the Phonomena uses a combination of both approaches (as does the Lounge, I think). The Phonomena also uses a DC servo opamp to control DC on the output, which I don't really like, but many of the discrete preamps use that type of circuit. From my own experience, I prefer a good quality capacitor. There have been some comparisons of the Rialto against others in that price class (see review link below), including the Phonomena II, Gram Slee, Pro-ject, Rega and others. Like some of the others, the Rothwell measures a bit low on input overload so I wouldn't use it with a real high output cartridge, but hard to fault beyond that, other than the utilitarian design and lack of adjustable loading for MC cartridges. Maybe all you really need is the $325 Simplex?

So what has you so set on these three stages? There are quite a few others out there, though I realize it is getting harder to pick a clear front-runner from the pack. The Lounge is still very highly regarded too. I just saw a new open-box ELAC PPA-2 for auction on ebay, ending soon, at $500 but hasn't met reserve, someone may steal that. Also a MS Nova II sitting at $300 with 1 bid and ending in about an hour, that'll be a big steal if it goes anywhere near that price. Lots more deals out there too.

Rialto review 2

 

I'd like to know also. It's like picking three random units from a blindfolded dartboard as these couldn't be more different from each other.

IME the best way to approach getting a phono stage is to use specs to narrow down the features you need for the cartridge(s) you are using or planning to use. From there, no substitute for an in-home audition. Often that means buying from somewhere with a generous return policy, participating in a manufacturer-sponsored home trial program, or working with a local dealer that will let you take a demo unit home. If you are buying used, you're basically limited to buy-try-sell.

RE: "discrete" circuits vs. op-amp based phono stages, I have not seen any hard evidence that shows "discrete" is superior. What I do see are biases from audiophiles in favor of these circuits as well as marketing talk from manufacturers. Same thing with active vs. passive RIAA equalization. I've heard phono stages of both types that sound "good" - it really comes down to pairing the right cartridge with the right phono stage. Some of the MC/MM switchable stages will actually do better with one or the other type rather than both due to the design. Likewise, some stages do not like very high output cartridges, while others do okay with them.

The other thing to keep in mind is just because the phono stage itself doesn't overload, it doesn't mean it won't overload your amp, particularly if the amp has an input limited to say 3V before distortion starts setting in. This is pretty common with certain integrated amps BTW. The MC-3 Turbo has an output of 3.3mV IIRC so I wouldn't be too worried about overload with most phono stages with appropriate gain for that cartridge.

 

Well, it's not really a question of which is "superior", it's just a preference, as with most things in audio. Many of us have come to the realization through years of listening and exploring different designs (in my case, both my own and others) that we prefer designs that only use low amounts of negative feedback, or even none if possible. Doesn't mean you can't build a great design using other methods, or that other people may enjoy those other designs more, and opamp designs will generally have better specs, but low feedback requires a discrete design.

 

Yep, you made it clear that it is a personal preference for you, which is fine.

 

Yes, I have a few audio design preferences, shouldn't be taken as anything more than that, this board is mostly about people expressing their preferences, both on the music and hardware side. And as you say, audition is always an important part of finding your own preferences, when possible.

 

Overall, less expensive phono pre's have OP amps in the circuit, the main reason, being budgetary reasons.

The do work, sound clean and measure well.

The more expensive phono-pre's tend not to have them, probably for different reasons.

OP amps, by their nature are clean but sometimes a bit clinical sounding.

Some "better" phono preamps might not always measure as well, but have a more engaging, organic sound to them.

 

There are some very expensive and well regarded phono preamps that use opamps (Sutherland. Parasound, Lehmann, Graham Slee, Simaudio, etc), but this whole discussion is getting kind of off topic to the OP, he didn't mention anything about opamps or discrete circuits. It's partly my fault for entering that aspect into the discussion, but it was just to add context to my response.

 

Yes, but mostly they use OP amps in the better phono pre's to step up the voltage for the MC input, rather than use a SUT.

 

I've narrowed it down to those 3 based on price, reviews, and listening notes that have been posted across numerous forums. They 'feel' like the right fit. Plus, there are so darn many options that if I didn't make an effort to narrow the list, i'd never be able to pick one!

The big upside of buying new is that I have the option to return if I wasn't completely satisfied. Buying used means that if I was unsatisfied I would probably have to sell at a loss.

 

I do have a preference for something without opamps, though am willing to make an exception if the designers have overcome of the drawbacks of opamps.

 

That is not necessarily true. If you buy used and buy right, then you can usually resell it for close to what you paid for it.

I try to buy mos everything i can either used or on closeouts. By doing so, I have equipment that is twice the quality that it would be, if I bought new.

There is always a lot of excellent audio gear for sale in the forum classified section and the prices are usually quite attractive.

And, no eBay seller's commissions!

 

Yep. And those are factors I took into consideration when trying to narrow my list. Rothwell and Musical Surroundings are discrete and well reviewed. The Lounge uses an opamp but seems to be very well received when it comes to listener feedback, despite it not measuring up terribly well on paper.

 

I have all kind of audio gear. I neither know nor do I care how any of it measures.

Check out the tour of my audio room below my system profile.

You pretty much have to use an OP amp in a phono pre at that price range.

OP amps aren't evil, they are just more clinical sounding. One of my systems is an all tube (past the DAC) audio chain and I prefer tubes, but there are a lot of real nice sounding inexpensive SS phono preamps.

I used a Musical Fidelity X-LPS SS preamp on the Rega upgraded RP6 and I have to say that I really liked the sound together with the Exact cart.

 

Good explanation.

 

Three fine choices - it would be tough to find anything else under $500 that would beat any of these - good on you for doing some initial homework.

Personally I own a couple of Lounge products (plus others), and if I were to buy a Lounge product today with a $500 budget it would be the Silver version....... but the other two preamps mentioned here are fine choices too......... who knows maybe they are better......... but unfortunately I have never compared any of these side by side, and only owned one. You might struggle to find someone who has owned two of the three and probably nobody who has owned all three.

One thing about the Lounge Silver is you won't have much trouble finding user reviews, positive testimonials --- there are many, that is always a plus. Highly recommend letting your ears be the judge as well as specs --- one thing true about audio gear is just because it measures well does NOT mean it is going to sound best in your system. Looking at measurements of a component measured in someone else's system as your only source can be very misleading and sometimes a bad way to gauge an audio purchase. Listening to it is always the primary litmus test --- unless of course you have the luxury of gaining from someone else's experience who has the same components, cabling, TT, cartridge, speakers that you do --- and then you trust their set up and ears.

Just curious - how many that have answered own or have owned any of the three phono preamps offered by the OP? Let alone compared them......

 

I’ve since upgraded pretty much all of my system since I wrote this but I posted here what I heard comparing the Mani to the Lounge LCR MkIII when I had both, with specific examples of detail and differences I heard.

Schiit Mani Vs. Lounge Audio LCR MKIII Extended Listening

Since then I’ve had my lounge upgraded to the gold/enhanced and have been really happy with the detail and soundstage

I posted here my impressions of the upgrade
Lounge LCR III factory-upgraded by the proprietor - all I can say is "WOW"!!!

‘Music is clear, in dense layered passages I can make out everything easily, and EQ doesn't feel fake boosted in any area. It just sounds natural to me. Bass has the tone of the note plus the oomph. Highs are not piercing, especially in trumpets like Miles's mute. Cymbals are rich and lifelike. ’

 

Or you can buy the Lounge Silver from one of our members for $333. Only $33 more than the base LCR.

Lounge Audio LCR MKIII Silver

I think that is a very fair deal. The Silver upgrade option was $450. If I were in the market, I would buy this one myself.

 

Link doesn't work. Sold perhaps?

 

Awesome. Thanks for sharing.

 

I think you need a minimum number of posts (20?) to access the classifieds - link worked for me.

 

I think one needs at least 50 posts to have access to the SH classifieds.