Phono Pre-Amp ???’s Ready for one now.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Blowby, Mar 11, 2019.

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  1. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
  2. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    What cartridge will you be using with it? What is your next cartridge after that? What is your total budget? What features are you looking for?
     
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  3. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    I read in the post I linked that the cartridges played a big roll in the SQ from his previous integrated amp. But to my supprize when he tried a standard AT-95e the sound was a great match with the above pre-amp.

    I have some MM’s now:
    Sure M92E’s with N92E, N104E and N99E
    AT 112EP and the AT95E he said worked well.

    As most everyone I will be upgrading at some time on TT and additional carts.

    Budget is upgrading from an integrated Denon AVC2000 (just the phono) through my Luxman R-115 out some mono amps. Not wanting to spend much but looking for a jump from where I’m at right now.

    Features are being able to MM/MC as I take that step. Improved sound stage from my integrated. In essence improve the overall sound with the best bang for the buck.

    I can afford to make a big jump on all my components but I like taking small steps so I learn the intricacies of each item and the nice gains as I step up the ladder.

    This is what is enjoyable about this forum, a vast amount of members willing to help with educating the willing to learn.
     
  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Biggest problem I see with the Tisbury unit is the high input capacitance - 220pf. I would never purchase any phono preamp that has that high of input cap, mainly because the carts I tend to use are capacitance sensitive and do better with lower input values. It is also very easy to add more capacitance with plugs, but harder to take it away. To lower the value you have to break out a soldering iron and perform surgery on the unit.

    The other thing I would say is that no ~$200ish phono preamp is likely to have high performance on the MC side, so I probably wouldn't consider it a factor. If you are planning to move to LOMC very soon then I would plan to budget quite a bit more for an MC capable phono pre.

    IME both the cartridge and phono preamp matter a whole lot, so merely upgrading the phono pre and then plugging in a $40 cart isn't going to yield huge night and day gains you'll be able to hear.

    If you are just looking for a big bang for the buck upgrade for $200 you have burning a hole in your pocket then I would suggest a budget vac RCM.
     
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  5. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    Patient_ot, I was first looking at the 110LP V2 but saw good reviews on the Tisbury. Thanks for the insight on capacitance which I see is adjustable to a few levels on the Moon.

    High End Phono Preamp | 110LP Phono Preamplifier | MOON - Simaudio

    I have a reseller local which has these in stock with a 30 return policy with no restocking or other fees. The cost is $399 so if this is a good first step let me know your thoughts.
     
  6. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    I think you are wondering about this phono stage, audition it over the weekend. We can tell you all sorts of things from our experiences. But, if you have a risk free audition available, put the $399 up for deposit and see if you like it and learn from your own experiences.
     
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  7. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Agree with @vinylontubes, audition locally (preferably in-home) and compare it to something else, then make your decision.
     
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  8. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    So I emailed the local corporate audio warehouse where they have clearance sales on some items from their surrounding retail stores. To my surprise when I asked if they had a Moon 110v2, the reply was yes, an open box. Never used, not a mark on it and the power supply had not even been opened.

    Should be here by Friday and it has the same Simaudio warranty and their 30 day trial to audition in my own home (as stated by your responses above).

    Thanks for both of your redirection. :righton:
     
  9. hammr7

    hammr7 Forum Resident

    I do hope that will work for you, and in all likelihood it will.

    If for any chance it doesn't, and since you are in Colorado, you might try to find a used PS Audio Nuwave unit. It was recently discontinued as they are apparently going upscale. It was originally targeted at those who wanted to do a higher quality digitizing of analog sources, and especially LPs. It has an excellent ADC but also has an excellent and versatile phono preamp. It can handle both MM and a range of MC cartridges. I have seen used units go for as low as ~ $700 (originally ~ $2,000), so you may find one as low as $500.
     
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  10. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I've heard many needledrops made using it and I even considered buying one at one point. Current retail is $1K last time I checked, used prices may very well be what you say.
     
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  11. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Let us know how you like it. I'm sure there are others interested in this unit...
     
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  12. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    Will do!
     
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  13. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    Thanks for the info, I’ll keep my eyes peeled.
     
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  14. SirMarc

    SirMarc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cranford, NJ
    Please do, I'm interested in this unit. Thanks
     
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  15. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    Moon 110LP v2 arrives at the office. I thought I would plug it in for a few hours. Without pushing anything through the audio paths who knows if this helps any on the break in time.

    The manual states it will continue to improve over the first 300 hours! So I need to play over 10 hours per day to allow me to truly evaluate a pre-amp at its prime before my 30 day trial is up. I better get started.

    Packaged nicely, pre-amp bagged in clear plastic and the power supply is in separate compartment and bagged as well.

    [​IMG]

    The unit looks sleek and sexy and has a nice weight to it for its size. Dip switches are easy to change with the hard plastic stylus they supply.

    [​IMG]
    (Picture of final settings)

    Once inspected the settings were as follows:
    Capacitance - 100pf
    Resistance - 47k
    Curve - RIAA
    Gain - 40db

    Well I turned all components off and started plugging in the interconnects. Powered on the Moon first per instructions and then started to turn on the rest. Ready for the first sample of this box of electronics and pixie dust.

    :shrug:
    Not to excited on sound change from my Denon AVC 2000 I was using as a phono amp. Hmm what happened to the expletive words that should be coming out of my thumbs (iPhone). Ok let’s start looking on line for any settings users have posted with their review. Nothing.... only copy and paste of the basic corporate write up is all I can find.

    I think making a few single changes and documenting the results is the only way I can figure this out. Here we go.

    1st change:
    Set capacitance to 0pf
    Let’s play a dynamic album, Super Tramp - Crisis what Crisis - Poor Boy.

    Ok now we’re getting somewhere.
    Sounded brighter, wider sound stage. Detail has been there from the beginning but it just opened up.

    2nd change:
    Set capacitance to 330pf
    Removed the brightness on top but a little veiled mid range. Not the direction I should be going I guess.

    So now I have 1 hour play time on the Moon and 16:30 hours On the Shure M92E/N104E

    3rd change:
    Back to 0pf capacitance.
    Still Super Tramp - Poor Boy
    Analytical and defined but too bright for me, very fatiguing to listen to. Mid range sounded real clean and semi warm.

    4th change:
    Set capacitance to default 100pf
    Sounded easier on the ears, tamed the highs but still semi bright notes up top. Mid range is back and bass is defined but not hard and punchy.

    Now 2 hour play time on the Moon / 17:30 hours N104E

    5th change:
    Set curve to IEC and it seemed to mellow the upper range and more air between the instruments. I’ll stick with this and play a few albums.

    Update:
    To my surprise it seems to be coming into its own with the play time I’m putting on the Moon, maybe only 3 hours, and it’s starting to show. A warmer, balanced, detailed and cleaner sound from the first track I played.

    If Simaudio says “it will continue to improve over the first 300 hours”, holy mother of ... I have a long way to go. I’ll keep you posted :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  16. hammr7

    hammr7 Forum Resident

    If the unit needs 300 hours, just run it 24/7 for a bit. You can always use some other input rather than LPs just to give it some time. Just keep the input soft as the normal input wil be quite low and the bass input is boosted by the phono preamp. You could probably keep the unit on with no input to give it time, and just run a record every now and then to put it through paces. That way you'll get to the 300 hours well before the end of the 30 day trial.
     
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  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    What is the recommended total capacitance for this cartridge in the owner's manual?

    Add the preamp capacitance to the capacitance of your tonearm and input cabling.

    If you have an older turntable and don't know tonearm and input cabling capacitance, you can get a capacitance meter and measure it. If you can't do that, assume at least 100pf in the tonearm and input cable alone.

    Another way to deal with this is to needledrop a frequency sweep from a test record via the preamp out and then look at that cartridge's FR through an audio analyzer program. Then compare the results with different capacitance settings. Most people will tune the response to be as flat as possible or you can tune it to your taste.

    Most moving magnet cartridges will do better with lower capacitance settings, though there are exceptions.
     
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  18. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Quite an odd list of capacitance settings there IMHO. If you assume at least 100pf in most user's tonearm and input cabling, then the higher settings (330 + 430pf) won't be of much use for most cartridges. It would've been better IMHO if they skipped those and swapped them for more useful 150 and 200pf settings.
     
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  19. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    I thank you again for your input.
    The Shure M92E states 200-300pF
    I just have a multimeter to measure with. May not provide much info.
     
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  20. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    100pf setting on the preamp is probably the best then.
     
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  21. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    Little update along the eval path.

    I started with the M92E/N104E (stylus from Jico) and wasn’t feeling the sound I should expect. I’m about 9 hours on the Moon 110 and 19 hours on the stylus. I have been leaving the pre-amp on 24/7 BTW.

    I thought that maybe the Baerwald alignment could be influencing the lack of openness and balanced volume throughout the frequencies. I chose to align using the Stevenson protractor and still kept my VTF at a 1.250 value. I might have noticed a slight improvement with the change but nothing stood out, nothing to get excited about.

    Next I think I’ll swap cartridges moving from the Shure to the AT95E with 34 hours on stylus. It’s set using Baerwald and VTF 2.460 as a value proven to be the best for my pre Moon 110 system. Not much change again with only a slight increase in treble, a little brighter. I decided to also align this cartridge to Stevenson looking for an impact in the SQ. Nothing different that I can quantity with the alignment change. Don’t get me wrong they all sound good, just looking for the Wow factor.

    Let’s go back to another Shure M92E with the N99E stylus from Jico as well. I have this set to Baerwald with 9 hours on the stylus, VTF 1.250 and about 10 hours on the Moon.

    Wow... now we’re getting somewhere. The soundstage opened up in both directions and the instruments and vocal have more separation. Warmer presentation and a balanced level from the bottom registers to the top. Brightness is greatly reduced on top and sounds the way I think it should, detailed and precise without the fatigue after 10 minutes.

    Reading about proper loading needed for your cartridge i believe this cartridge found the sweet spot. The area on the Moon 110v2 where I can adjust capacitance has a jump from 100 to 330 and I can’t make minor changes with the settings provided.

    Patient-ot commented the Moon is missing a critical area between 100-330 where maybe small adjustments would bring the other carts back in the game. This could be a nice update to the pre-amp.

    Enjoying the system the way it sits until it gets further into the burn in process and I’ll go back to the other carts for comparison.

    Where it’s at now:
    Moon 110v2 - 12 hours
    M92E/ N99E - 11 hours
    Me - :agree:
     
  22. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The difference between alignments is going to be subtle for most people. Stevenson will optimize for the inner grooves.

    In general, if you want a "wow factor", you'll probably have to upgrade your cartridge several steps up from what you're using now.
     
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  23. Blowby

    Blowby Static lp Thread Starter

    Location:
    Colorado
    I realize the step up to a high end cartridge will yield a big return and I agree I will have to pay the price at some time. Trying to squeeze out as much as I can from the above carts and learn as I go. It’s a lot of work but I seem to retain more information by first hand experience. A little failure and then success so I can make decisions based on what I hear. This exercise should guide me to narrowing the choice of styles and SQ of available cartridges when I step on up the ladder.

    This forum is invaluable.
     
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  24. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I think that's a good approach. If I just dropped several hundred dollars on a new piece of gear I probably wouldn't be in a rush to go shopping again either. Re: cartridges, I think the real step up occurs in the $200-300 range with the larger companies that are capable of delivering high performance at a good price due to economies of scale. With the smaller companies, you have to spend almost 3 times as much or even more to get to their "good stuff". When you are ready to buy, I'd also encourage you to shop around re: pricing. Some companies have cartridges that are way more expensive here in the U.S. and it is cheaper to just buy them from overseas. Sometimes the discount can be pretty substantial due to U.S. distributor markups.
     
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  25. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    OP you are definitely taking the "educated" approach -- nicely done and nice to see! This experience will be a big stepping stone whether or not long term you stick with the Moon, you've taken the time to dig in the right way.
     
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