Pink Floyd - Nakamichi Tapes. How much do we really know about them?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by bettsaj, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    This is a carry over from another thread, in the hope that we can gain a bit of clarity around the Nakamichi tapes.

    For the uninitiated the Nakamichi tapes were cassette recordings made by Pink Floyd or a crew member on the Animals tour of 1977. There is one (as far as I know) monitor mix recording from the 29th January 1977 at the Deutschlandhalle in Germany. I've expressed my opinion on another thread that I think this monitor mix is likely sourced from one of the Nakamichi tapes. My reasoning for this is simple.

    You are Pink Floyd on a massive US and European tour, you have access to whatever equipment you want for the tour, mixers, mics, outboard gear etc. If you were going to record the concerts for your own use, for maybe reviewing purposes you'd likely just take a couple of lines out of the monitor mixer and stuff the other ends into a Nakamichi tape deck. You likely wouldn't just record "open mic" as the quality would be horrendous.

    The monitor mix had to be made by a crew member as they would be the only people that would have had access to the stage, and the monitor mixer. This also lends weight to the likelihood that the Nakamichi tapes are likely monitor recordings.

    We also know that Roger Waters shouted the concert number out during the performance of Pigs (Three Different Ones). Until now I've believed he did this for the benefit of the bootleggers (as has been banded around previously), however now I've learned about the Nakamichi tapes, it does make sense to me that he was shouting the concert number for the benefit of the Nakamichi tape.... That's my take on it...... Please discuss.
     
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  2. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    I've just read an interview with nick Mason where he's talking about his Saucerful of Secrets project, the interviewer askes him about the Animals boxset and he replies YES, it's coming but there's disagreements around some of the content. He explicitly mentions the monitor mixes from the tour, which could suggest they've been looking at using some of those. It could work if they mixed the monitor mix with some audience ambience noise from the concert (as the monitor mixes will be very dry and lifeless, with no audience noise at all).

    "There’s really nothing from the entire Animals tour you could put out?
    No, there’s nothing. There’s certainly nothing really good, just sort of monitor mixes and so on. We really should have done the whole thing, filmed and recorded it properly."
    The link to the whole piece is here Pink Floyd’s Nick Mason on Saucerful of Secrets Tour, Syd Barrett – Rolling Stone
     
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  3. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    Yeah sync it with a good audience recording and that's about all that could be done.

    I wonder how many shows have board tapes?
     
  4. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    Well, Ron Toon is of the opinion that the Nakamichi tapes were NOT monitor mixes but open mic recordings. I'm not so sure, as I can't see Floyd using open mics to record a live performance when it's likely easier to just plug a tapedeck into a desk and take a feed direct from the monitor mixer. I may be wrong, and I'm not disputing Rons knowledge.... but i suspect they recorded most if not all the concerts from the monitor mixing desk.

    The intention of the monitor recordings was purely for their own use, and not for public release. Whether we'll actually see an *official* release of any of them is a matter of debate, and lies fully with Pink Floyd
     
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  5. burningedge

    burningedge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burbank, CA, USA
    Too bad there's no genius engineer could invent a software that uses some complicated algorithm with frequency responses or some other technology to demux individual instruments from a stereo board mix, so they can remix them. But I guess that's impossible. Mason makes it seem like they have the monitor mixes but they don't think they're up to par in terms of quality for a release.
     
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  6. Thoughtships

    Thoughtships Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon, UK
    Yes. Impossible. Totally and utterly impossible, with any algorithm in the known universe.
     
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  7. andrewskyDE

    andrewskyDE Island Owner

    Location:
    Zack Island
    I think it must be at least two cassettes used for one gig. 2+ hours wouldn't fit into one tape.
    Usually their concerts were parted to two sets, so that means one cassette was for Set 1, and the other (plus encore) for a second cassette.
    Then there might be interruptions, as you have to switch the side, the Nakamichi recording machine probably had automatic side switch though.
     
  8. burningedge

    burningedge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burbank, CA, USA
    Yep. And it seems unless we lived in an alternate universe where that were possible, we're probably never going to get to hear those nakamichi tapes. It's been my dream for 30 years since I became a fan to have an official release quality recording of the Animals tour, but I'm going to have to keep on dreaming.
     
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  9. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    Let us be the judge of that..... Anything from the animals tour will be worth having. I mean they released that dodgy recording of Floyd Live in Stockholm 1967 on the Early Years set, and you couldn't even hear Syd on most of it.... So surely those monitor mixes would be better than that.
     
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  10. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe Forum Resident

    Monitor mixes? Usually you'd want a mix from the mains, not from a monitor, which are individualized mixes made for each musician on the stage, and are generally terribly unbalanced. The bass player wants a lot of kick drum, the lead singer wants a lot of his own voice, not much guitar because the guitarist is hearing the amp on stage, etc.
     
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  11. Zack

    Zack Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easton, MD
    I think it's fairly well documented that Roger shouted out the numbers to mark how many alienating and dehumanizing gigs he's had to suffer through and at that point in the tour, rather than for any cataloging purposes. He also by no means did it every show.
     
  12. kanakaris

    kanakaris Forum Resident

    Location:
    Belgium
    Animals tour?
    No thanks .
     
  13. Chris M

    Chris M Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Dodgy? Stockholm is an balanced, crystal clear, lively stereo recording made in a jazz club by a professional engineer with permission from the band. I would think this is more enjoyable than a dry FOH soundboard cassette of an an arena show.

    Syd's vocals at Stockholm are not a major issue considering most of the set was instrumental numbers and the Set The Controls vocal was recorded.
     
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  14. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter


    I think it's dodgy...... Stereo? I thought it was mono...... I think the fact you can't hear Syds vocals IS a major issue. It is fairly balanced, but still not brilliant, it's quite Lo-Fi in it's recording. The Beatles at the Star Club Hamburg is a better recording.... At least you can hear them singing. It may not be hi-fi but you can hear the performance, and it has energy.
     
  15. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    I don't think we'll ever know exactly why he shouted those numbers out.... Unless he's fessed up in an interview. There's about 3 or 4 different opinions on this on the interweb. You're right, he hated that tour, and I've read it was counting down to the end of the tour, also that it was for bootleggers, and I've just read it was a request from Gilmour as he was recording the shows (The monitor mixes) and wanted something to identify each show.

    You're right, he didn't shout at each show (or it isn't audible) and some of the numbers not in sequence. But I put that down to Roger forgetting what show it was. Being on tour blends into a blur and you easily forget what city you're in after a while. You're just on a treadmill of hotel, bus, arena, bus, hotel, airport, bus, hotel, arena, bus so on and so forth.

    Someone needs to ask Roger, and I suspect it may be asked when the Animals box is released.......
     
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  16. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    Just for those interested, the numbers that were shouted out are in the brackets - its not known if he shouted out a number on the unmarked ones - you'll also notice that some of the numbers don't match the tour date number


    23 January PF Westfalenhalle, Dortmund, West Germany [1]
    24 January PF Westfalenhalle, Dortmund, West Germany [2]
    26 January PF Festhalle, Frankfurt, West Germany
    27 January PF Festhalle, Frankfurt, West Germany
    29 January PF Deutschlandhalle, West Berlin, West Germany [5]
    30 January PF Deutschlandhalle, West Berlin, West Germany
    1 February PF Stadthalle, Vienna, Austria [6]
    3 February PF Hallenstadion, Zurich, Switzerland [8]
    4 February PF Hallenstadion, Zurich, Switzerland
    17 February PF Sportpaleis Ahoy, Rotterdam, The Netherlands
    18 February PF Sportpaleis Ahoy, Rotterdam, The Netherlands [11]
    19 February PF Sportpaleis Ahoy, Rotterdam, The Netherlands [12]
    20 February PF Sportpaleis, Antwerp, Belgium
    22 February PF Pavillion de Paris, Porte de Pantin, Paris, France
    23 February PF Pavillion de Paris, Porte de Pantin, Paris, France [14]
    24 February PF Pavillion de Paris, Porte de Pantin, Paris, France [15]
    25 February PF Pavillion de Paris, Porte de Pantin, Paris, France [6-1]
    27 February PF Olympiahalle, Munich, West Germany [17]
    28 February PF Olympiahalle, Munich, West Germany [18]
    1 March PF Olympiahalle, Munich, West Germany
    15 March PF Empire Pool, Wembley, London, England [21]
    16 March PF Empire Pool, Wembley, London, England
    17 March PF Empire Pool, Wembley, London, England [22]
    18 March PF Empire Pool, Wembley, London, England [23]
    19 March PF Empire Pool, Wembley, London, England [24]
    20 March PF Empire Pool, Wembley, London, England (rescheduled to 15 March)
    28 March PF New Bingley Hall, Staffordshire County Showground, Stafford, England
    29 March PF New Bingley Hall, Staffordshire County Showground, Stafford, England
    30 March PF New Bingley Hall, Staffordshire County Showground, Stafford, England [27]
    31 March PF New Bingley Hall, Staffordshire County Showground, Stafford, England [28]
    22 April PF Miami Baseball Stadium, Miami, FL, USA [30]
    24 April PF Tampa Stadium, Tampa, FL, USA [31]
    26 April PF The Omni Coliseum, Atlanta, GA, USA
    28 April PF Assembly Center, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, LA, USA [33]
    30 April PF Jeppesen Stadium, University Of Houston, Houston, TX, USA [35]
    1 May PF Tarrant County Convention Center, Forth Worth, TX, USA [34]
    4 May PF Veterans Memorial Coliseum, Phoenix, AZ, USA
    6 May PF Anaheim Stadium, Anaheim, Los Angeles, CA, USA
    7 May PF Anaheim Stadium, Anaheim, Los Angeles, CA, USA
    9 May PF Oakland Coliseum Arena, Oakland, CA, USA
    10 May PF Oakland Coliseum Arena, Oakland, CA, USA
    12 May PF Memorial Coliseum, Portland, OR, USA
    15 June PF County Stadium, Milwaukee, WI, USA
    17 June PF Freedom Hall, Louisville, KY, USA
    19 June PF Super Bowl of Rock 'n' Roll, Soldier Field, Chicago, IL, USA
    21 June PF Kemper Arena, Kansas City, MO, USA
    23 June PF Riverfront Coliseum, Cincinnati, OH, USA
    25 June PF World Series of Rock, Municipal Stadium, Cleveland, OH, USA [46]
    27 June PF Boston Garden, Boston, MA, USA [48]
    28 June PF Spectrum Theater, Philadelphia, PA, USA
    29 June PF Spectrum Theater, Philadelphia, PA, USA
    1 July PF Madison Square Garden, New York City, NY, USA
    2 July PF Madison Square Garden, New York City, NY, USA
    3 July PF Madison Square Garden, New York City, NY, USA [53]
    4 July PF Madison Square Garden, New York City, NY, USA [54]
    6 July PF Stade du Parc Olympique, Montréal, Québec, Canada [61]
     
  17. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Odense Denmark.
    Except an engineer at Abbey Road is working on an algorithm to do precisely this. And it has been used on all Beatles remix albums since 1+

    Ofcourse seperating an electric an electric guitar from drums are easier than a whole band. Just pointing out that such tech is actually being worked on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  18. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Pick up a fast car, burn my name in the road

    I read yesterday that they can now do that, on a thread on this forum ... I haven't any more info sorry
     
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  19. Thoughtships

    Thoughtships Forum Resident

    Location:
    Devon, UK
    Frequency separation I can see working... Just individual instruments? Hmm....
     
  20. jcarr73729

    jcarr73729 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Ouch!
    That was the only time I ever saw them live.
     
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  21. andrewskyDE

    andrewskyDE Island Owner

    Location:
    Zack Island
    Are you sure? The Star Club tapes are much more low-fi quality than the Floyd's Stockholm gig. And the latter sounds brilliant. Of course it's a shame the vocals aren't audible though.
     
  22. bettsaj

    bettsaj “I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing.” Thread Starter

    Star Club recordings are awful..... but as a document of a time are essential. And at least you can hear what's going on..... Floyd's Stockholm gig is brilliant sound quality compared to the Star club recording... However it's let down by the fact you can't hear Syd
     
  23. Kim Olesen

    Kim Olesen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Odense Denmark.
    No. What they are doing at Abbey Road is far more complex. It is an AI algorithm that can be taught how instruments sound and then find them in the audio.

    If you find the best available source it is better than it’s rumor.
     
  24. Zack

    Zack Forum Resident

    Location:
    Easton, MD
    Seriously? I would have given my left testicle to see the Animals tour. It was pretty darn fantastic despite the less than imaginative set list.
     
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  25. burningedge

    burningedge Forum Resident

    Location:
    Burbank, CA, USA
    Cool! I'm a caveman when it comes to all this audio technology stuff. That's why I said, " . . . or some other technology." Floyd has always prided themselves on being at the forefront of audio technology. They should try to use this tech you mention to take a stab at their best nakamichi tape and see if they could get anything passable to put on an Animals box set. As long as they can produce something that sounds better than the best bootleg version of the Oakland show, I'm all in!
     
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