Pioneer's new PLX-1000 Turntable

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by bluelips, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Maybe it´s the frequency modulations from the W&F on the BDs?
     
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  2. druboogie

    druboogie Maverick Stacker

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I hope its not, but I dont believe DJWORX (I actually like that site) more than I believe my eyes.
    This picture of a Pioneer PLX500 with the same tone arm as the VL-12 is a dead givaway.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  3. I've had both DD & BD. I've liked both. The Best TT I've ever had was DD. Again to be fair, one night a week or ten days ago. I was listening to the PLX/AT-OC/9II/Jelco set up. Pierre Boulez conductiong the Cleveland O. on my treasured 40 year old 3 LP Claude Debussy collection. By this time the 2 week old OC/9II was really opening up. I fell for the illusion that the musicians and their instruments were in my room. This is why I listen to music. I've had the same experience with a my original Thorens TD160c/ Shure V15 TypeIII, My SL1100 AT15, My AR TT OC/9, My Mits LT5V. I feel the Denon is worth a shot. It was 15% off, 36 months no interest, 45 day return. Every HiFi system, every turntable or othe HiFi product is a compromise between sound and price. Including the $250,000 platinum LP spinners with $20,000 tone arms and $15,000 cartridges thru $99,000 Pres. I don't want to be buying another one for a few years. We'll see what happens. All in all I'm reveling in a new LP phase and so is my wife. Who is saying things like I never heard that and I've owned this album for years. LPs have always been a compromise between wanted and unwanted noise & $$$. When we hit the sweet spot we bite.
     
    Brother_Rael likes this.
  4. In the link from the guy whose owned both, he says the VL12 arm is much better and much better sounding.
     
  5. arem

    arem Forum Resident

    I think this similarity is because working DJ'S and Turntablists demand it. The Technics 1200 is the standard that vinyl DJ'S are used to, to make a product that had a radically different design or layout would be an instant non-starter for most. After working with 1200's for years or even decades you know where things are with your eyes closed. Move that pitch slider or power switch and you throw everything off for performers.

    It's like with guitars, for example there are a lot of Stratocaster derived designs. Some are low quality ripoffs and some are major improvements on the original Fender design, even if they appear mostly identical.

     
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  6. druboogie

    druboogie Maverick Stacker

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thats absolutely true, but Im not talking about the layout. Im talking about the specific design for the gimbal in the tone arm, along with the height adjustment and counterweight. Every turntable manufacturer makes a different looking design. They use that same design across their different models. Hanpin has 2 types, their original and the new model that is designed exactly like the Technics 1200, used in the Pioneer, stanton and audio technica models, among others. But theres only one more manufacturer that makes OEM turntables (I forget the name, they arent as widespread as Hanpin) and the back of their tone arms dont look like the Hanpin design. The hanpin units have improved over the years, they have some great units I used and really like. But the pictures speak for themselves, it doesnt get any more obvious unless you handle both turntables in person.
     
  7. arem

    arem Forum Resident

    I guess, but how many ways are there to adjust VTA or counterweight, and if there is a tonearm geometry that works (especially for DJ'S who usually bring their carts pre-mounted on head shells with them to gigs {at least I always did}), why reinvent the wheel? That tonearm design has been proven to work really well for DJ use, something "improved" probably would introduce new factors for working DJ'S that can be avoided by working with the standard design. If your goal is to improve on the 1200 as a DJ tool then Denon has taken the right approach IMO. If you want to improve on the 1200 as an audiophile turntable you have a lot of options try and improve the original. I think it's telling that Technics have decided to work with the original design on their new turntables.

     
  8. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Technics have only stuck with the layout and looks. Under the surface their new decks are completely different. I can see obvious differences between the Denon and Pioneer arms. Impossible to tell if just cosmetic from pictures.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  9. If you lined up most of the high end belt-drive turntables and especially high end tonearms you'd see more striking similarities than differences. They, after all, are each doing the same job. The same could be true for every piece of audio gear from the discount dregs to the poshest of the atmosheric (some would argue absolutely insane) high end. Every manufacturer has massive duds (not just Hanpin) and successes (not just Technics, which has produced it's fair share of dredful drek).
     
    Brother_Rael likes this.
  10. BTW. I did order the Denon VL12 on July 2nd and should get it tomorrow. Great deal. Today I was on Audio Advisor and saw a turntable I had been attracted to for several months. It was a demo Pro-Ject Classic with a Ortophon 2M Silver. It has full factory warranty and is in excellent shape, and it was over $400 off of the retail price. Which puts it between the PLX-1000 and the VL12 I ordered it, and it should be here early next week. So I will have all weekend with the VL12 and then get the "Classic." I will replace the 2M Silver with my AT-OC/9II. I will thoroughly audition each unit (unless of course the VL12 hums). Then I will decide which, if either, fits my needs and tastes. If I keep the Classic. I will mount my brand new 2M Silver on my AR The Turntable and sell it. If the Ar is better than both. I will keep it and sink $600-$900 into upgrading it. A good place to be. Far better demoing at home in my system than in different stores, or all in the same store on differnt systems. I will be reporting in.
     
  11. BTW if anybody can tell me how to properly use the Ortophon's $8 Cartridge Protractor I bought I'd appreciate any insights. I couldn't get it to work with the PLX-1000 at all. I think it's Baerwald.
     
  12. Davey

    Davey NP: Beth Orton ~ Weather Alive (2022)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Are you asking how to use universal two-point protractors in general, or just that one? Normally, you just keep going back and forth, adjusting overhang and offset angle until you are aligned on both grids (of course, moving the protractor so that stylus is on grid crosshairs at each point). There is a reference measurement point on the headshell with the PLX-1000 to set the overhang, so that is probably easier. I've read reports that the headshell slots are not long enough for anything but Stevenson alignment with many cartridges, so may not be able to get a Lofgren A (Baerwald) or Lofgren B alignment.
     
  13. Here I sit listening to BOY IN THE BUBBLE from Paul Simon's GRACELAND 180 Gram LP. It sounds great, not even a trace of hum. I need to fine tune AT-OC/9II cartridge. I am listening to my 1983 AR The Turntable. Today I receive the new Denon VL12 Prime. And to be honest I only listened to maybe 1 minute of this great album on it. As soon as I hooked it up it hummed even before I turned the unit on. Hummed far worse than any of the Pioneer PLX-1000s I returned for humming. I also thought that compared to the PLX the VL12 seemed a bit cheap. The frame, the top, the switches, the sliders all felt a lower quality. The tonearm even seemed cheaper than the $200 less PLX-1000. I have already reboxed the VL12 and have a paid Return Lable. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement. Now let me say that I really haven't given my AR a good listen with the AT-OC/9II and they sound great together. NO HUM TO BOOT. So It ain't my system or my inability to set things up properly. The PLX & VL Direct Drives both have a horrible hums in my system. BTW I think the AR sounds better too better detail separation bass everything. Who knows maybe I've just been wasting time. Next up a New/Demo Pro-ject Classic which was shipped today. It's got some tough competition.
     
  14. druboogie

    druboogie Maverick Stacker

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Tried to tell ya.

    I do wonder if its just an incompatibility with Hanpin circuitry, or just direct drive in general.
    I hope the Pro-Ject works out.
     
  15. H8SLKC

    H8SLKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Wait. You're FOUR turntables into this exercise now right? This is becoming like a Monty Python skit. I'm so sorry for you! It hurts to read about these travails!
     
    33na3rd likes this.
  16. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Interesting. Are these turntables supposedly grounded internally? Seems like a lot of turntables made that way have problems in certain systems (ground loops, interference, etc.).

    Might be better off just upgrading certain other parts of your system or putting a fancier tonearm on the AR or something.
     
  17. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    A properly made direct drive should not hum at all. Hum would mean QC issues at the factory, bad design, setup, or wiring issues in your house (ground loops and such).
     
  18. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA
    Sir, there is something wrong somewhere.
    I am not intelligent enough to suggest what or where, but four different tables from two different manufacturers can't be at fault. I'm glad your AR is working well, there would be nothing wrong with sticking with that table. The AR is a fine table, and would be more than worthy to put more money into and improving. However, your problems with the Pioneer's & Denon seem to be localized to your system. If you used the same Headshell for the comparisons, I would suggest a different headshell or at least reseating all the connections on the cartridge & headshell plug and rechecking all grounds.

    I own a PLX-1000 and am happy with it. However, if I owned an AR table like yours I might consider doing one of the Vinyl Nirvana or Merrill mods. Your current table with a Jelco or an SME arm would would be hard to beat without significant outlay.
     
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  19. druboogie

    druboogie Maverick Stacker

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I do bet it is QC issues, Ive seen so many success stories with the PLX. But sometimes certain caps and transistors and chipsets just dont shake hands. Whatever his setup is, it could just be one component that just doesnt agree with Hanpin decks. My turntable and my MC cart hummed a little bit with my Emotiva pre amp, until I got the Project Tube Pre, and the hum went away.

    I do think these turntables are grounded internally for DJs. I saw a video stating that you dont need to use the ground post. That could be an issue with some pre-amps, but Like I said, theres too many success stories. Id liken it to a bad batch.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  20. I had the hum on 2 different headshells with 2 different Cartridges, I replaced both the RCA wires and grounds and AC plugs several times including running long RCA leads and putting the turntable 10 feet away from the system and plugging it into an outlet in a different room. No matter what I did with the PLXs they hummed.

    As soon as I heard an even worse hum on the Denon, I tried different cables & AC plug ins (including ground lifters which get rid of ground loop hums in my PA if needed) even moving my Phono Pre Wall Wart several feet away and plugging it into a different wall outlet. But I wasn'r willing to spend countless hours again on the Denon, whose hum was multiple times worse.

    I have a quite good studio level recording system in my basement including very sensitive tube and Condensor Mics, Mic pre, Effects compressors etc which never has hums. No other input hums at all on my system. There is no hum on my bedroom system. None of the radios we have in the house hum, even when the Fridge kicks in, the garage door opener or the microwave are running. My AR doesn't hum, and never has , with either of the 3 cartridges (including my original AT OC/9I) plugged in the same way as the PLXs and the Denon VL12. Why wouldn't the same cartridges pick up the same hum, in the same system if the system, or the home electricity were at fault? My AR has never hummed even on my old Adcom Pre Amp (which I still used for a while as my phono Pre when I bought my Adcom GFP-750, and only had MM in, so I really had to crank it for my OC/9 low output MC. NO HUM then either.

    Folks said use fully grounded & shielded non directional RCAs. Tried it several times...hum. Even the long set I used to put the PLX 9 10 feet away from my Pre were fully shielded cables the store I still work in 15-20 days a year use for installing home theater systems. On the PLXs the left channel hum was far worse but switched to the right when I reversed the cables. Indicating the Hum was before the Turntable RCAs. So I honestly think it was in the turntable grounding or hum from the motors or transformers, which is actually being picked up in the signal path of the table. Perhaps the PLXs & VL12 reacted to my system or wiring, but in any case they didn't work for me.

    I could upgrade my AR, which is an option if the Project Classic doesn't work. But I worry a bit if a new S arm on the AR could have the same problems. Besides the cost to mod, upgrade, and rearm the AR will be more than the cost of the CLassic, which I bought as a demo from Audio Advisor. Been in contact with both Vinyl Nirvana and GEM, about the AR. It will be interesting to see.

    In my 35 + years as an audio saleman I installed hundreds if not thousands of Cartridges & turntables in as many systems and homes. I've never had hum like this and when I did have hum I could always find a way to get rid of it. I BTW tried my EB-Tech ground loop hum killer... didn't even lover the volume. I'm open to any ideas, and I believe PLX owners who have told me no hum. Perhaps my PLXs which were all made in March of 2017 were a bad batch. That's what the guy from Pioneer thinks. But I ran out od patience and wanted humless music with no more effort. Thanks for the input.
     
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  21. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    To be honest the hum on the PLX1000 was pretty low in my experience and only annoying by my own standards being used to high grade belt drives. There is no problem if you use a MM. The AR you have has always been highly regarded and like the TD160s approaching the Linn of the 1980s for a far more reasonable price. As you have discovered the Pioneer is very nicely built and finished for it's price point. As I said before the hum is likely from an unshielded transformer Hanpin use which interacts with MCs ( I bet the VL12 is a Hanpin in spite of information supplied to the contrary). If you want better than the AR I suggest aiming at $3000 dollar plus mark for a better modern belt drive. It will be interesting to hear if the Project is on a level with the AR or somewhat of an improvement. I would also suggest auditioning the new Technics GR and G models if you want a DD aimed at hi-fi enthusiasts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    druboogie, Robert C and patient_ot like this.
  22. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I wouldn't be terribly surprised if you prefer the AR over the Pro-Ject.
     
  23. We shall see. I need to better align the AR/OC9II. I don't have any gauge for it. I think I orginally use a GEODISC at the store I worked at then. And perhaps the anti skate which seems a bit heavy handed and caused it to skip a time or two.
     
  24. I really liked the PLX-1000 except for the hum, and I love the OC/9II sound which sounded great on the PLX save the hum. I did also try a High Output Adcom MC which uses the MM settings on my Van Alstine Phono Pre. The PLX-1000 IMHO is a better built more rugged table than the Denon VL12. Hard to find the Technics GR yet. the G is out of the question/budget as is a $3000 belt drive.
     
  25. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I don't know about Pro-Ject's longer tonearms, but the Debut I had used some custom alignment that didn't match Stevenson or Baerwald. I think they do inlude a paper protractor with their tables.
     

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